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Comment by bitbasher | Hacker News Reader

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Without fair trial there is no proof they are associated with gangs and violence. Thousands of innocents are jailed in there.

https://www.rfi.fr/es/programas/noticias-de-am%C3%A9rica/202...

The ends justify the means?

How can we even know ends or means if the government or whatever cult/cartel/corp/warlord can dictate what information is released and what you know? Those who try to tell the truth are labeled "violent gangsters" and dealt with by the "justified means", whatever that is.

Objectively "the ends justify the means" is BS. I'm not saying you don't have the right to believe in it, you do, but in order to prove your worth, I want to see you with a camera inside one of those prisons 24x7 for a couple of months at least.

>no proof they are associated with gangs and violence

Look at the picture in your linked article, who are you trying to confuse?

>Thousands of innocents are jailed in there.

Maybe, maybe not. But definitely better than ~10000 killed in the meantime, the statistics speak for themselves.

I work with plenty of people covered in tattoos that aren't criminals nor gang members. Also most people I would rather the guilty go free than an innocent be punished. Thats why we have a justice system where you are guaranteed legal representation and are innocent untilled proven guilty in a court of law before a jury of your peers. As such none of these men are guilty and we have violated their rights sending them there. If you skip the trial you have just allowed whoever is in power to imprison anyone they want without cause on their accusations only.

>I work with plenty of people covered in tattoos that aren't criminals nor gang members.

And when they have MS13 tattoos like exactly in that picture? Still no connection to a Gang?

And yes i know Popeye was NOT a Criminal.

> And when they have MS13 tattoos like exactly in that picture? Still no connection to a Gang?

"Pledge your allegiance to our gang and get a tattoo or we'll murder your family."

Is that the connection you're looking for?

>>"Pledge your allegiance to our gang and get a tattoo or we'll murder your family."

>Is that the connection you're looking for?

That's what Hitler, Mao and Stalin said, and now you have three choices....

Do you work with people with generic tattoos or with gang tattoos?

>> Thousands of innocents are jailed in there. > Maybe, maybe not.

If "Maybe guilty" is grounds for punishment, it can excuse any atrocity, including genocide.

> But definitely better than ~10000 killed in the meantime, the statistics speak for themselves.

Once "Maybe guilty" is a proof of guilt, no information coming from that place can be trusted, numbers mean nothing there, all claims ring hollow because loosely justified violence can silence the truth tellers.

It's weird to have to explain this on a US-hosted site, there is a reason the US Constitution is the way it is and the current efforts to circumvent it can lead to only one result - turning the US into another El Salvador...

How about the non-offenders we deported there this very month who received no process in this country and whom the government has now been forced to admit or accidentally sent there?

You mean just like the criminals didn't feel compassion for their victims? Oh, but these guys are guilty those victims of criminals were innocent i hear u say.

Not everyone in those prisons are guilty. Collateral damage i hear u say. The price of safety?

"The iron hand crush'd the Tyrant's head And became a Tyrant in his stead." -Willian Blake

Apparently, Blackstone's Formulation[0] doesn't resonate with some folks.

Nor does Niemoller's plaintive cry[1]. It kind of makes you wonder what sort of world those folks want to live in since they don't seem to be living in the real world.

And if the consequences for everyone weren't so dire, it might be instructive for those folks to end up with the pointy end of the stick for which they're advocating.

And more's the pity.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackstone's_ratio

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_They_Came

> Apparently, Blackstone's Formulation[0] doesn't resonate with some folks.

We have some truly Authoritarian, anti-American forces in American politics today. The "tough on crime" crowd doesn't agree with that formulation, especially if the right people suffer.

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