(I recognize that not everyone can do this, but if you have the technical skill to handle the math, I do still recommend it.)
(I recognize that not everyone can do this, but if you have the technical skill to handle the math, I do still recommend it.)
It shouldn't be this hard.
https://ttlc.intuit.com/turbotax-support/en-us/help-article/...
But even then, assuming "they'll just sell it anyways", most of that information exists with other orgs anyways that could just as easily just sell it anyways. If I don't trust Intuit, why would I trust ADP or whoever my bank is to not sell my data either?
But sure, I agree, using any third party to file your taxes exposes you to that risk of yet another party potentially leaking/selling data. Once again though, to me that trade off of 14 more hours with my kids versus someone knowing what I paid in mortgage interest last year is pretty OK to me. Data brokers could just glean that same kind of useful information it means through the thousands of other things tracking me anyways.
unless you happen to click "OK" on one of the deceptive prompts TurboTax will show you while preparing your taxes.
It's about reducing the burden on taxpaying Americans, or something like that.
Palantir got the contract and estimates it’ll take a month to index all the IRS data, rip out the access controls and slap a nice search gui on top.
What they probably get now is even more control over how that data is given to them and how much of it they can access.
No need to partner with the IRS, the DOGE dudes have an external drives in a sock drawer at home, ready for their next Fintech startup. For reasons attributed to "world class algorithms" the Fintech will be preternaturally good at targeting financial services to individuals, and assessing credit-worthiness given nothing but a name and zip code...
I too would work for "free" to gain access to that valuable data. If I didn't have a half-decent moral compass.
Also my bank only knows what goes on in my checking account. They have a lot less information than the IRS does (although what they do have is probably a lot more detailed).
I used to work in Intuit's Security R&D business unit and worked on the software that made it so that even if someone at Intuit/Turbo Tax wanted to do that it'd be impossible. Intuit spends a lot of money on cryptographers and very skilled programmers to ensure that. The definition of PII extends all the way to the HTTP logs of filers such that we couldn't even visualize filings on a map as they came in during tax season.
There's plenty of things that Intuit does that aren't good without alleging baseless claims.
At some point in a few years, this will stop working, and you’ll probably overpay by thousands.
Anyway, it took me well over three hours to use turbotax this year, which is faster than most. An hour of that was reverse-engineering their calculation error which made my refund too high, and certainly would have triggered a sternly worded demand for more money and a fine (or worse) from the IRS. I know this because they made another error a few years ago, and it cost me 16 hours on hold with the IRS and thousands of dollars.
Having said that, I’d have overpaid a few thousand this year and spent at least 8 hours doing it by hand.
On the bright side, if Trump succeeds in burning the federal government down, maybe a simpler tax code (like the rest of the first world has) will emerge from the ashes of the IRS. If not, then he won’t be president any more.
So, at least it’s not 100% bad.
Edit: I just noticed you’re using auto-import! If that’s saving you time, you’re making a big mistake. Intuit doesn’t reliably save all the documents you’ll need when the IRS sends you a nasty letter. Go manually download as many of them as you can, and file them for 7 years.
However, knowing it's that easy requires reading a lot of instructions, and if you make enough money (depending on filing status), it suddenly gets much more complicated (forms 8959, 8960, 6251 have income triggers), and if you have 1099s (INT or DIV) you might need to file Schedule B and form 8995. And if you have a mortgage, you should do your taxes twice to see if itemizing with Schedule A is better. And god forbid you sold anything and have to do Schedule D and forms 8949.
Every year I get a digital form to sign from the tax office, I pay residual taxes and send it in all digital. This takes me in totalt 20 minutes including everything. Everything is prepared for me all I have to do is check if everything is correct. I can not fathom even copying those numbers correctly from diffrent sources in under an hour.
I do not want to do my taxes. I just want to be informed so I can double check and pay them.
Spending an hour doing taxes seems crazy ineffective .
The worst thing about our system is that the taxes are impossible to figure “correctly” (that’s not even a concept that makes sense, given how the tax code works) and there are massive legal penalties for getting them wrong.
You may not have Rental income and Stocks to report
I never said it is hard. Slow and tedious, but not hard. I take my time. I probably could speed it up, but I usually listen to music while I do it and try not to stress myself out about it.
If you have multiple brokerage accounts, RSUs from an employer or two, maybe some consulting income, etc, it's annoying and tedious.
And if you have a business, doing it by hand basically means you'll overpay by a good extent.
The system prefills 99% of the details that they've obtained from my employer, bank, health insurer, stock broker etc directly. All I need to do is fill out my deductions from a running spreadsheet I've maintained throughout the year.
What I don't like with Intuit is the sleazy ways they try to upsell you and to trick you into allowing them to use your financial information for non-tax purposes.
TurboTax is a rip off. There are dozens of free websites that do the same thing: ask you a handful of questions and fill out a spreadsheet/form.
$200 is mind bogglingly expensive for doing it yourself. TurboTax does nothing that dozens of other FREE services don't also do. It's just a few questions.
If you have self-employment income, business income, capital gains, 401k distributions, HSAs, 529 plans, etc. it can get complicated but at that point TurboTax honestly doesn't help all that much (unless it's gotten a lot better since I last used it). If you get to the point that your taxes are too complicated to do by hand you probably need an accountant anyway.
It does. I have most the things you have mentioned and it was automated, except for correcting a small situation their OCR messed up by reading an extra blank space from the form.
- Downloading all forms and instructions.
- Downloading all 1099s and W-2 statements.
- Scanning any paper 1099 or W-2 forms I receive (rare now, thankfully).
- Filling out a draft of the forms slowly in pencil. This takes the most time. I have sometimes used spreadsheets for this but I find it is quicker to just use a calculator or even the Python REPL.
- Filling out a "hard copy" of the forms and double checking my math. This takes more time than you think if your state don't have fillable forms, but I have sometimes done it by hand very neatly rather than typing it up.
- And finally going to the post office to mail things. I never just put them in my mailbox.
2024 only took 11 hours in total mostly over 2 weekends. And as I have said in other posts here, I don't stress myself out about and take my time. You can probably do it faster if you want to.
The key is to just read the instructions for each form and follow them mindlessly and mechanically. I will admit that it is difficult at first, but you do get used to it, and despite my tax returns getting much more complicated over the years, the number of hours that I take has stayed the same.
Freetaxusa is the simplest way but really there are a ton of options that're free.
I do think TurboTax or a competitor makes sense when you have a novel-to-you tax situation to deal with. Probably the hardest part of filing taxes is just figuring out which of the supplemental forms are applicable to you. I absolutely would have missed the foreign tax paid one on my own, for example. When your tax situation is the same as the last year just with different numbers I don't see much of a point.
the next year, pretty much the same spreadsheet with whatever minor tax changes had been made for that year.
the 15 hours is mostly spent getting your shit together which you have to do for an online solution too.
I did a better job than my accountants do, they often forget little details that I would keep track of. ("no, I did not owe a penalty, the estimated payments and refund carried forward meant there was enough money on my tab...")
I calculate all the fields using my homebrew software. All calculations are done there.
The software produces a report which is organized by form and field. I can go through it and just put the indicated values into the right forms.
The forms are fillable PDFs. I copy and paste most of the values.
The last few years, I had perfect results; no correction came back from the Canada Revenue Agency.
This year, that d1ckhead Justin Trudeau left us with a surprise; complications to the Canada Pension Plan. Something like a 40% of all the line items in my tax calculation are from the new CPP schedule 5. It has multiple brackets now. I had to redo that section of my system (redefine the model). That is tedious. Anything same as last year is a breeze.
I had to model a whole new form this year since I worked for two employers and overpaid EI (employment insurance). The common forms handle CPP overpayment. For EI overpayment there is no "heads up" in the workflow at all. Since there is a deduction for EI payments, you have to do it right; you can easily screw up and naively calculate and claim the overpayment, while keeping the deduction calculated from the the overpaid amount.
Anyway, when I used to work with just pen and calculator, it took me about, oh, a bit over an hour or so. 10 to 15 hours seems crazy for personal tax. Is this for a moderately complicated corporation, where you're saving money by not hiring an accountant?
Spending 15 hours on filling data that the government mostly knows and can calculate is exactly one of those balancing acts of the universe that nobody needs.
I used CashApp taxes this year, and I liked it. It was actually free and it didn't do any upsell in the process.
For example, at some point, I'm fatigued and surprised how much work it was thus far, but I think I can see the finish line on the horizon, but then one line in a form triggers a cascade of additional schedules and many more hours.
Then, finally, the federal forms are done, and it's a stack... And the state forms are somehow not just a 1-pager of quickly copying key numbers from federal 1040, but seem (subjectively) to more than double the work, and produce a second stack.
The last 2 tax years, I decided it was a really unhealthy amount of stress, so I've bought TurboTax Home & Business. I run it in a KVM instance that gets airgapped, on principle, so my data doesn't get sent to corporate surveillance capitalism HQ.
Though I don't assume that TurboTax in airgapped VM will keep working every year. But, hopefully, before they inevitably break it some year, and I'd have to do taxes by hand again, I will be killed by a crocodile.
Just use their website, pick your battles.
The government is going to use software to process your stuff anyway, and whatever contractor makes that software will sell it to TurboTax.
I do my personal, my 2 LLCs in under 2 hours. I also do my roommates W2 which takes 10 minutes. The whole thing costs like $35.
Seriously, how does it take you 10+ hours? I do not understand at all. Lol
I don't doubt that it really takes that long for you. I just think it's ridiculous that anyone should spend that amount of time on something that should be a lot more simple, streamlined, and efficient.
That’s insane.
It gets really complicated very quickly, but if you are single, have less income, and it's only from wages, it's much simpler.
As to the permutations aspect, this does take a lot of time but it can net a lot of savings. One thing that I would add is that you do have the choice to round to the cent or the whole dollar (at least with the IRS), but generally I have never found that to make any substantial difference, so I just round to whole dollars at this point and don't waste my time trying to optimize that.
You may find it insane, but I'm OK with it. I'm not going to knock somebody for doing something different, but I do think it is important to know how to do it yourself when push comes to shove.
A big benefit of filling out yourself is knowing how to minimize the tax burden. Using a program or CPA you never really understand how tax is calculated and the tax consequences of various financial choices you make throughout the year.
I spend just a few hours doing taxes by hand when it's are similar to the previous year. With an accountant, I have to spend a bunch of time getting things ready, anyway. I only pay them when something weird happens.
Also, fuck Intuit.