Comment by aleph_minus_one | Hacker News Reader

Comment by aleph_minus_one | Hacker News Reader

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aleph_minus_one

While I completely agree with many of the points that you made, I disagree with some:

> Bureaucracy is crazy in Germany. Forget about doing anything online, paper and in person only.

The latter point has nothing to do with bureaucracy.

> Germany is also one of the least friendly countries for expats. And I say that as a native Germain. Officials will refuse to speak English to you. Yes, refuse.

For example in the USA, they will refuse to speak German with you. So what?

In my opinion there actually exist good reasons for this:

1. A lot of legal, bureaucratic German terms have no direct analogue in English (and their word forming sometimes depends on subtle grammatical features of the German leanguage).

2. For official purposes, it does not suffice if the clerk can somewhat speak English; he/she rather has to be fluent in a way that is "negotiation-safe" ("verhandlungssicher"; I know that this German term is usually translated with "confident in business discussions", "business fluent", "language proficient", but all of these translations don't catch the subtlety of the German term).

> people [are] not open to making new friends.

The German word "Freund" (commonly translated with "friend") has a different meaning than the English "friend" - the relationship goes much deeper. I don't think that Germans are not open to making new "Freunde", but if you want to have shallow, superficial relationships, Germany is not the ideal country. Vice versa, if you want to have deep relationships, you will likely be annoyed by the USA.

> For example in the USA, they will refuse to speak German with you. So what?

Actually they would most likely be delighted to show off their German if they knew any. But that is besides the point. English for better or worse is the current international language.

I can found a new company in Estonia in literal minutes without speaking a single word of Estonian and without being physically present in the country because the whole process is digital and in English.

If you want to attract international talent you have to adapt.

> The German word "Freund" (commonly translated with "friend") has a different meaning than the English "friend" - the relationship goes much deeper. I don't think that Germans are not open to making new "Freunde", but if you want to have shallow, superficial relationships, Germany is not the ideal country. Vice versa, if you want to have deep relationships, you will likely be annoyed by the USA.

Yeah, Americans have only superficial friendships, only us Germans know the value of real friendships. (Sarcasm)

You are not wrong about there being subtle cultural differences but it isn't an either or. You can value deep friendships but still be friendly towards acquaintances.

In the end it doesn't matter the reason. If expats feel like Germans are acting coldly towards them and have a bad time in Germany, that is what they are feeling. It doesn't matter if there are good reason for that or if Germans didn't even intend to act coldly. It just fact that Germany is often seen as one of the least friendly countries for outsiders. Not everyone, some do find it easy to integrate but most don't.

I sick of the chauvinism is see from other Germans. Our culture isn't better or worse than others. We certainly have many areas we could improve.

> I can found a new company in Estonia in literal minutes without speaking a single word of Estonian and without being physically present in the country because the whole process is digital and in English.

> If you want to attract international talent you have to adapt.

Calling English "international" is like calling Spanish, Chinese, Russian, Arabic, French, Portuguese, Turkish or German "international". Internationality is not "English".

> You can value deep friendships but still be friendly towards acquaintances.

I insist that Germans are typically not less friendly, but they are indeed less warm (compared to, say, people from South American countries, and also some South European countries). This is coherent with your claim "If expats feel like Germans are acting coldly towards them", which I would not consider to be unfriendly. Indeed: what is considered to be "friendly" differs a lot between countries.

> Not everyone, some do find it easy to integrate but most don't.

If you don't want to learn German, it will likely be hard (or at least much harder) to integrate. The problem rather is that many people invested years, sometimes decades, into learning English and US-American customs instead of learning German and customs of German-speaking countries. Thus the situation that your mentioned people don't find it easy to integrate is in my opinion partially self-inflicted.

> I can found a new company in Estonia in literal minutes without speaking a single word of Estonian and without being physically present in the country because the whole process is digital and in English.

Bad example. When you incorporate in Estonia, if you come through eResidency, they are very clear and very open in stating that ANY interaction with tax office and/or judicial system WILL be and MUST be performed in Estonian.

Is that an practical issue? I imagine you wouldn't interact with the tax office anyway as you fill the taxes them electronically and as for the judicial system, you are going to need an Estonian lawyer anyway.

Genuinely asking. Wondering if someone has experience doing business in Estonia. It looks pretty nice in the prospectus so would love to hear what the reality is.

In practical terms you can hire someone. Mind you if you hit an audit, those hourly fees quickly add up.

Also side note, Estonian companies have been recently overrun with Russians. I don't deal with EE companies anymore. Got burned too many times.

> For example in the USA, they will refuse to speak German with you. So what?

In the USA many official government forms are made in several different languages.

This may not always be the federal government (probably less likely these days), but in California you can cast your vote in like 5 different languages (maybe more)?

This would never happen in Europe. It's simply less friendly to diversity.

> This would never happen in Europe. It's simply less friendly to diversity.

In Germany, six minority languages are protected:

* Dänisch (Danish)

* Nordfriesisch (North Frisian)

* Saterfriesisch (Saterland Frisian)

* Romanes (Romany)

* Niedersorbisch (Lower Sorbian)

* Obersorbisch (Upper Sorbian)

Source: https://www.bmi.bund.de/DE/themen/heimat-integration/gesells...

This means in the respective German regions you can also speak to the administrative agencies in these minority languages.

The difference is that in the USA people are willing to add languages just based on the languages the people there already speak.

Edit to add: In Germany this might mean you could interact with the government if not in english, then also arabic, turkish or vietnamese.

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