https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_history_of_the_Indi... - pre-Columbian population figures are highly disputed. And the majority of the population decline happened before 1600-s, mostly from diseases.
None of the Spanish conquistadors were nice people, but neither they plan mass genocides.
I haven't read a good explanation for why it is so.
Also before modern medicine and other stuff the climate outside of mountainous areas (which besides some exceptions weren't necessarily able to sustain high population density) wasn't great. e.g New England was a much nicer place to live and therefore natural population growth was relatively low.
Combine those things with there being way less Native Americans in the North (due to various reasons) to begin with, very different colonial policies and treatment of the native people and the result is not that surprising.
The British/Americans were settling the territory of primitive tribal nations. Taking over the land was the goal of the entire enterprise. The people were an afterthought.
Segregation and White Power/Black Power/Native Power should be dealt as something totally obsolete, kinda backwards. "Mi tribe it's the best one, and the rest of the worlds sucks".
As a Spaniard I always hated the concept of reservations and idiots like Jim Crow. The point of America should have been to leave out your tribe behind to be something else.
I have blogged about this compared to my own experience of race in different cultures https://pietersz.co.uk/2023/08/racism-culture-different
Also worth thinking that the attitudes you (and I) have have been rejected by many people in the US. For many, a "melting pot" culture is no longer considered desirable.
If not, tell these people to stop using the Roman alphabet while posting under an iPhone at Starbucks, and try to write everything with runes.
I'm from Iberia. We were invaded from zillions of tribes. Spanish itself it's twisted Latin, with some loanwords from French, Basque, Celt, German (and Germanic), Italians and who knows more. We assimilated tons of words from former Iberian dialects, such as Galician-Portuguese, Catalan... and thanks to that we can talk with millions of Spanish speakers, and get understood pretty well from the Portuguese, French and Italian at least in written form.
Ditto with English with Romance terms. Ironically, the higher education you get in English, the more low class Hispanic and Lusophone people in South America will understand you.
And the reverse it's true, too. Use Germanic words in English as the average Joe and only the high class non-native English speakers will get something from your speech.
They were more Ethnicist than some staunch American WASP belonging to KKK. Kinda like Blacks in the US calling another one "Oreo".
They said what Camarón did was "Heresy" to Flamenco music, that his album was not flamenco at all. Heresy with capital letters for them.
10-20 years passed, and, guess why? The gypsies said that Camarón now was "the greatest (Gypsy) one/ever), as it were the Jesus for Gypsies.
Rock music it's a mix between Black and White cultures, creating something else, but better. In Spain we had groups like Triana in the 70's who mixed American Folk and Rock like Jethro Tull (the first two albums are almost a Jethro Tull wannabe, really good) with some Flamenco music. And Flamenco itself it's a mix of Arabic, Gypsy and -who knows- more roots...
e.g there were thousands and thousands of Native American refugees fleeing to Spanish Florida from the Carolinas after the British got there. When Florida was captured some were lucky enough to be evacuated to Cuba and other Spanish colonies (in the few ships they were willing and able to send). The rest? Well...
Interesting. Do you have any further reading on this topic? I had never heard about it.
Iberians bred with the people they conquered. The Spanish in particular practiced an intentional policy of breeding a caste of illegitimate mixed-race offspring that would mediate between the Spaniards proper and the aboriginals they had enslaved.
In the Spanish colonies, there emerged a project to “Mejorar La Raza” (literally: to better the race) by encouraging breeding with those of a fairer complexion than oneself. I suspect (though have never confirmed) that this attitude was primarily fostered to encourage women to more readily breed with Iberian men, but in the present day the attitude is quite prevalent among both Latino men and Latina women; Latinos fetishize white features, which are associated with being not only high-status and wealthy, but also simply beautiful in their own right.
The Americans largely arrived after small pox had substantially reduced the native population, and subsequently followed a comparatively genocidal path of historical development. They did not tend to breed with the natives they encountered, so they have a far lower proportion of aboriginal ancestry. At some point between the late 1800s and early 1900s, they developed a romantic appreciation for Native Americans, which later leads to the common trope of every American family claiming to have a Cherokee great great grandmother on their mother’s side. Since the 2000s, the common trope is that all the growth in these tribes has been from white-passing people looking to cash in on affirmative action; this is not an undeserved stereotype.
At least check the articles you link yourself, ffs.
Not sure why the apologism here, genocide was done through and through, intentionally by outright murder and slavery and unintentionally via diseases (but even that was spread with intent once found out their immunity is weak against old continent diseases)
This is somewhat unsure. First, if we are talking about the Spanish conquest, that is deep 16th century, with all its magical thinking. God, the Devil and witches were all plausible explanations for epidemics, and holy processions, pilgrimages and carrying of medailons dedicated to saint X were considered reasonable treatment methods. It is a mistake to look at the 16th century with 21st century eyes; it is a different world resting on very different mental foundations.
Second, at least in the Spanish territories, losing your workforce was economically disadvantageous.
Doing this is the equivalent of throwing a small piece of litter in an otherwise clean alley. Humans being what they are, the alley will soon be a trash heap.
Yeah, and as you see, the 100 million is a highly questionable value. Just try to read past the first paragraph, maybe?
> but even that was spread with intent once found out their immunity is weak against old continent diseases
Nope. The germ theory of disease was not formed until 1800-s, the invention of vaccination was in 1796. There were some inklings that smallpox can be spread through contaminated items even before that time, but not much earlier.
> The Spanish conquest of the Aztecs was terrible. It was a prolonged period of pestilence, famine, torture, rape, plunder, destruction, conquest, cultural eradication, and general misery, with a short term death toll of something like 600,000 (including military and civilian casualties), and a long term death toll in the millions.
> And yet part of me thinks it was totally awesome.
https://mattlakeman.org/2020/06/25/polygamy-human-sacrifices...
Hint: human sacrifices and slavery.
For the rest of the Natives, they were like the Nazi Germany, or, a better comparison, the Imperial Japan in Asia.
He continues:
> My main takeaway from the book is that the Aztecs were a highly unique civilization that I desperately want to learn more about. They offer great insights into how a society with radically different structures and norms might function.
Then my comment could have been misleading. And I’m sorry.
> , so I’m not sure why you felt it appropriate to post it without that context.
Sure, let’s talk about appropriateness.
> He continues:
And?
And he is clearly not celebrating this violence, he’s saying he is fascinated by it. Would you feel this way about a woman telling you she watches a lot of True Crime documentaries? I consider both interests to be perverse; it just seemed like an odd thing to fixate on when the article had quite a bit more to it than that.
Okay then it was what I thought (see previous). Done?
> Would you feel this way about a woman telling you she watches a lot of True Crime documentaries?
I would think that about anyone who takes the time to frame the conquest in that way and then do a heel-turn in the next paragraph. This is not me saying that the conquest was evil and blaming someone for being interested in it—this is the author framing it in terms of the suffering and then “And yet” (note conjunction) thinking that it was awesome. This is just what he himself chose to write.
Would I judge someone—or I guess specifically a woman—for explaining their fascination with True Crime in the same way? Uh. Yes.
> I consider both interests to be perverse; it just seemed like an odd thing to fixate on
You’re just casually policing off-hand comments. But that’s not odd? My comment, ill-contexted as it was (and sorry for that to the gamer author) was in response to someone focusing on the crimes the conquistadors. Both my response and the quote from the author (on another piece) was relevant to that point.
Considering that I also made a response to the whole article here (which you have replied to by the way) this is clearly not a fixation.
> when the article had quite a bit more to it than that.
It certainly has a lot of volume.