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Comment by rahimnathwani | Hacker News Reader

What is special about the nature of the work (domestic chores)? Would you see things differently if she were working as a barista or doing a bit of coding in return for accommodation? If so, why?

When you say "It's not like she went there to work, she just did chores" you seem to imply that people come to the US because they want to work. They come for various reasons, and work is a thing that's necessary for most people, to achieve other ends.

For this woman, working during her vacation was a means to fund her travels. She didn't come to the US with work as her primary purpose, but I'm assuming the work was integral to her plan because otherwise accommodation would be expensive.

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Yes, because calling an obligation to do chores "work" is massively stretching the definition of the term "work".

You can be a full-time employee whose only job is doing chores, but that's not what's described here, it's just doing (some of ) the household chores for a single house/family which you're living with

There is even a term for it, though the practice has been falling out of fashion

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Au_pair

To be clear, I'm not arguing that this practice is in line with the tourist visa. I'm saying that calling that work is not what most people would understand under that term. And she most likely wasn't even aware that this (probably) wasn't permissable. My issue is your miss characterization of her doing this knowing that it's not allowed. Young people usually aren't very informed, and you're pushing a narrative of her going there for gainful employment, when she's likely just doing this to experience life in another culture for a few months.

The government’s definition of work needs to be broad enough to keep people from gaming it. If she had to “work” to sustain her life, that should count as work in any definition, whether this is official employment or not. Any exchange of your time or skills for any type of benefit is work. Even if you don’t benefit. I guess if someone enslaves you while on a tourist visa, that is still work.

  There is even a term for it, though the practice has been falling out of fashion

Yes, and if you google that term and append 'visa', you'll see that, to be an au pair in the USA:

- you need a J-1 visa: https://j1visa.state.gov/programs/au-pair, and

- you must to be 18 to 26 years old, and

  when she's likely just doing this to experience life in another culture for a few months

Most people choose to work so that they have a roof over their heads in the place that they want to be, whether they intend to be there permanently or not.

Did you skip over half my comment? I said that it probably wasn't permissable under the tourist visa (it depends entirely on what the au pair relationship was).

The issue was never the deportation, it was her treatment during this process. (And the grandparents miss characterization of her motivations)

To address your final remark: The idea of au pair was to grow as a person during their formative years, it's something upper middle class teenagers/young adults did, which is also why theyre usually not a illegal immigration risk, because they've already got plenty of privileges at home. You seem to think it's something people did go move up in the world, which this never was - at least I've never met anyone doing it with the desire to get a good job. They all just wanted to meet people, experience life and broaden their horizon.

Or stated less charitably: they wanted to escape their parents home but didn't yet know what they wanted to do with their lives. That's not really a problem people trying to move up in the world have.

But there is a reason why au pair isn't really done anymore, and it's partly because a lot of hosts saw the guests as cheap labor, which is why you need a work visa nowadays.

  The issue was never the deportation, it was her treatment during this process.

I addressed the treatment part in my first comment on this article: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43478428

  It’s understandable that enforcement measures must serve as a deterrent, and not just return the situation to what it should have been. But even if he severity of detention might be debatable in this case, the core issue here is the article’s misleading characterization.

It seems like we both agree the law should be enforced. I have nothing in particular to share about how the law should be enforced.

My point is that The Guardian is portraying this as some innocent 'mix-up' when in fact the person has been an adult for 10 years and can reasonably be expected to know that they can't work on a tourist visa, even if they're paid in kind and not in cash.

> My point is that The Guardian is portraying this as some innocent 'mix-up' when in fact the person has been an adult for 10 years and can reasonably be expected to know that they can't work on a tourist visa, even if they're paid in kind and not in cash.

But it probably was a simple mix-up by her. I'd bet she literally didn't know. Does that make her ignorant and likely extremely immature? Totally, but if she weren't... She wouldn't be trying to do au pair to begin with

I don't think that coverage was misleading at all, frankly

The question is one of amount, not nature.

AirB&B hosts may say you need to clean up afterwards, including sweeping up and even putting the sheets into the washing machine.

That's definitely a domestic chore, yes? You pay less for the room in exchange for some unpaid domestic labor.

Should that result in detention?

If I were a French citizen and had a US friend online who offered me a place to stay during my visit who said "and while you're here you need to help me learn Python generators" - should that result in my detention?

I have been paid to teach Python courses in several countries.

Or, suppose my bestie is 8 months pregnant, and now lives in NYC instead of Paris. I offer to come over to help with the last month and first two months of the baby. I'll also use her place as a home base while exploring the city.

That's definitely domestic labor. Do you think it should be prohibited and/or result in detention?

I assure you that cases like this happen a lot.

  The question is one of amount, not nature.

You're describing staying with family or friends, and helping out as part of being a good guest or friend or family member.

She made a deal with strangers for exchange of value.

There's a difference in nature.

(You also gave the AirBNB example. For that case, just watch the direction of money flow.)

Your argument seems to have been that any domestic work requires a work visa.

Is your argument now that if you do domestic work for a friend then it doesn't count as work?

How well do you need to know someone before they are no longer a stranger?

You seems to suggest that since "work was integral to her plan", then if work was not integral to her plan, for example, if she could afford to pay for a hotel every night, but wanted the experience of living with an American family, including helping with domestic chores, then you think that sort of unpaid domestic labor would be okay?

I ask because I'm struggling to understand why you emphasize the nature of the work, when you seem to think that identical domestic work for other reasons is okay.

  I ask because I'm struggling to understand why you emphasize the nature of the work

Perhaps that's because I'm not emphasizing the nature of the work? See my earlier comment at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43479178:

  What is special about the nature of the work (domestic chores)? Would you see things differently if she were working as a barista or doing a bit of coding in return for accommodation? If so, why?

"she just did chores" is an expression that some sorts of domestic work is below a reasonable de minimis threshold.

You seem to think there is no de minimis threshold.

I can't tell if that's because it's specifically domestic work that makes you think that, which is why I gave an example of teaching you Python generators in exchange for a place to crash while I visit the US.

There are not many families who would let a stranger stay in their home in return for a 'de minimis' amount of work, whether that's teaching python generators or cleaning.

It might take you two hours to teach me python generators. That's not enough to convince me to let a stranger stay at my place for a week.

Umm, surely you've heard of exchange students, right? Foreign student comes, stays with a family for a semester or school year. Helps with the chores.

We had exchange students in our school.

There's also sites for people who want to host foreign visitors.

https://justlikehome.com/become-a-host/

> Our homestay program is designed exclusively for our international visitors. Hosting international visitors is the best way to experience the world without leaving your home! Hosting provides families with the unique opportunity to share their cultures and learn about different cultures, all while being in the comfort of their own homes.

https://www.workaway.info/en/hosttype/family

> With Workaway you can find 14136 local hosts and families for volunteering around the world. Low cost immersive travel without having to pay expensive agency fees.

The entire idea of couchsurfing is that people will let strangers into their home.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CouchSurfing

> The idea arose after Fenton found a cheap flight from Boston to Iceland but did not have lodging. Fenton hacked into a database of the University of Iceland and randomly e-mailed 1,500 students asking for a homestay. He received between 50 and 100 offers and chose to stay at the home of an Icelandic rhythm and blues singer.

CouchSurfing is the real sharing economy, not the BS that Airbnb pushes.

Don't look only to your own feelings to deny what other people clearly do.

  There's also sites for people who want to host foreign visitors.
  https://justlikehome.com/become-a-host/

From that site:

  Your homestay participant pays Just Like Home for each four-week stay at the beginning of each cycle. The host family is paid for the four week stay at the end of the first week of the stay. If either party is not satisfied with the match, the host family must refund the unused portion of the homestay fee.

  With Workaway you can find 14136 local hosts and families for volunteering around the world.

That site is for people who are willing to work for 16 to 20 hours per week. That is way beyond 'a few chores':

  Hosts generally are asked to provide accommodation and food in exchange for help from Workawayers of around 4-5 hours per day 5 days a week.

Indeed, I did not vet those links.

The examples of hosting a foreign exchange student, and of couchsurfing, remain.

Frankly we live in a world of grey areas. Open the door for someone? Boom! Deportation!

That a person is deported for cleaning around the house on a tourist visa is ridiculous.

But unfortunately, many/most countries have ridiculous visa rules. And even more unfortunately, we live in a time were people enforcing these rules have lost all common sense.

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