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I started with turn-based RPGs, Realms of Arkania: Blade of Destiny in my case (the original German version). I was a teen playing shooters when the RTwP craze happened and never really got into those, luckily there’s actually a pretty wide selection of TB CRPGs, nowadays. My absolute favorites are Owlcat’s Pathfinder games, BG3 is obviously the huge and popular one, Owlcat’s Rogue Trader for the WH40k crowds, but there are also tons of smaller niche games. I recently played "Skald: Against the Black Priory" [0] a pixel graphic retro-style RPG, and currently playing "Space Wreck" [1], a fallout inspired CRPG heavy on replayability, but there are many, many more.

[0]: https://store.steampowered.com/app/1069160/SKALD_Against_the...

[1]: https://store.steampowered.com/app/1063540/Space_Wreck/

Yeah, Pathfinder Kingmaker and Wrath are great. I also really enjoyed Pillars of Eternity 1 and 2 (I especially liked 2, I believe others preferred 1), Tyranny, and Hare Brained Schemes' Shadowrun series (Returns, Dragonfall, and my favourite: Hong Kong).

Beamdog remastering Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, and Neverwinter Nights was a good excuse to replay them, though the new scenarios (Siege of Dragonspear, Pirates of the Sword Coast,...) didn't really do much for me. I believe they're working on Neverwinter Nights 2, which is I game I'm quite fond of (Mask of the Betrayer is such an interesting story), so I'm looking forward to seeing it.

The indie scene is also doing interesting things, Fell Seal: Arbiters Mark is a neat take on the Tactical RPG style based on Final Fantasy Tactics.

Beamdog took a massive shit on Baldurs Gate 1 & 2 with their awful fan fiction that seems like it was written by a 5th grader who fell out of a tree and hit their head on every branch on the way down. I was ready to buy all of their remasters until I stumbled upon Nera and proceeded to uninstall the game and curse beamdog any chance I get. Thank God I have my original disks.

Yeah, I can see how people may not like the new additions, Beamdog's writing team isn't quite the same as the original. Funny thing though: the way you started your message is how I feel about Larian.

Rogue Trader really nailed a lot of the 40k atmosphere which was great.

All the plebs on the ship are being too noisy, just cut out all their tongues.

Baldur’s Gate 3 is recent and very much doesn’t follow the Bethesda model! It’s also turn-based which was a big plus for me as well.

One thing I dislike the Bethesda games is that quests are too shallow. So many times, I wondered while playing the games, someone could put some extra love into some of the quests to make them much more in depth and more interesting.

Alas, budget and time limited I guess.

A big part was being brave enough to make players put a little mental effort in.

In Morrowind, a big part of gameplay was figuring out where you needed to go to progress in a quest. A NPC might say to go to a town, take the East road out, turn left at the lake, and proceed until you see a certain kind of tree. You actually needed to do all that just to find the next step of the quest. It felt incredibly immersive. In Skyrim and a lot of post-Skyrim games, you just take a direct path to the quest marker without even thinking about it.

Quests in Skyrim often feel shallow because you put in almost no effort. It's a little skippable dialogue, a run across the mountains to a quest marker, kill something, loot something, and run to another quest marker for more optional dialogue. The dialogue in these quests often didn't even explain how you know where to go. Maybe the NPC puts a mark on your map, or maybe you're just psychic! Writers no longer had to care about giving directions, so they often didn't.

Bethesda probably did this because players were complaining about getting lost in Morrowind. If a quest isn't carefully written and the world carefully designed, it is often easy for players to miss the mark. After Skyrim, quest makers became the norm in all sorts of RPG's. It reduced effort for developers and ensured players don't get lost. However, it may be the case that the frustration of getting lost and the triumph of finding your way are parts of a compelling role-playing experience.

BG1 and Fallout 1/2 were both games where you could get badly lost and wander into areas that were way too tough for your character at the stage of the game you were currently in. Getting a little bit lost, a little bit in over your head, and stumbling upon something hidden was actually a lot of fun.

+++++ on this. There are mods for Skyrim that remove the markers and other indicators while also rewriting any quest description that are insufficiently descriptive, and it just completely changes the game. Even more so if you remove fast travel. There are also mods that remove the scaling yet maintain a balanced world. Basically, Bethesda games need to be modded, and there are some absurdly high quality modding teams out there.

But it's also weird because all of these mods sound like you're just beating yourself in the head, and perhaps we are. I remember a game development class I took, and one of the first things we did was define what game was. I thought it was quite stupid at the time, but in hindsight maybe the guy was onto something: "A series of unnecessary obstacles."

And so it always sounds great to remove obstacles, but the more obstacles you remove, the less of a game you have left at the end of it all. For those of us who grew up in the Nintendo era I think none of us will ever forget Battle Toads, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, Punch Out, and other such games where the entire games are basically about beating yourself in the head repeatedly, yet at the end of it all - it felt great!

I think it's a bit more than "because players put in almost no effort" but I do agree that is a big factor.

I'm probably nitpicking here, but I really hope they put a lot more thoughts into each quest. For example I remember one of the brotherhood tasks is to assassinate the Emperor, but it was a very disappointing task as far as I remember. Admittedly, removing the markers and such definitely helps a bit, but I can't help feeling that the game designers just wanted to pump as many quests into the games as possible, and call it a day. I'd rather have just half of the quests, but with each of them having more depth and require more thoughts.

I totally feel that.

I would love to play an RPG where I need to take notes. Where I fear to get lost in the wilderness if I take the wrong turn because I could get eaten by a horrible beast then.

I mean, that's what real adventures are about, or not? The mystery of exploration. The need to navigate by markers in nature or even the sun.

In a perfect world for me, game devs would add more dynamic and intelligent NPCs with their own agenda. I am bored by the feeling of Potemkin villages, where everything feels like it is designed to give you a smooth game experience and every NPC is standing there forever, just waiting for you.

For decent time it really has not been about budget or time. Certainly not after say Skyrim and maybe including that. It is more so their game design philosophy and lack of talent in making more interesting things. In the end Bethesda makes worlds filled with small pastiches. And well with Starfield they even failed the filling part.

There are really a lot of RPGs right now that do not follow Bethesda's model. Consider Kingdome Come Deliverance as an example for a very different approach, more akin to Gothic. Speaking of, the upcoming Gothic remake is another game that will be quite different, something to put on the list and to buy if reviews are okay. Or vampire bloodlines 2, if that gets released it won't be similar to skyrim at all. BG3 was already mentioned. For more games that are released, check out Solasta: Crown of the magister, and there are a lot of other options at that level.

I also dislike Bethesda scaling content and loved Zelda BOTW - I wish there was a way to disable enemy scaling there. For those who didn’t notice - https://zeldamods.org/wiki/Difficulty_scaling

For anyone looking for an alternative, Bethesda’s Morrowind has it all, an open world and no scaling enemies.