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Comment by whatshisface | Hacker News Reader

I would like to know what the public opinion on these issues is before blaming politician's ignorance, considering that to them the relevant knowledge is knowledge of what voters will support or tolerate. The impossible promise of backdoors that France can enter but no other country, organized criminal syndicate or petty government-employed stalker can find is only one impossible promise among the many we can hear from the world's parliaments. In fact, the impossible promise is something of a stereotypical tactic.

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French want less criminals and immigrants in the street. Whatever it takes.

I'm french, i have not heard any people, work, street, even television or internet speak about that.

The sad truth is that it wouldn't even solve the issue, criminals will always be able to use encrypted communications. there are open source software that can't be tampered with, software that doesn't use a single server where backdoor can be put, or they could even simply encrypt their text message. i could do that from my mac terminal and Bruno Retailleau isn't going to put a backdoor in my mac terminal...

> French want less criminals and immigrants in the street. Whatever it takes.

If that were true, France would have a vastly different immigration policy. It would even have an explicit, drastic, and targeted emigration policy.

Since when the general population are the decision makers? /s

Well, half /s anyways. Working class don't want them because "they're taking our jobs". Middle class don't want them because "blah blah security". Upper class want them because that's cheap labour. And as it happens, the upper class is the class in power.

Most french don't care. But this still creates tensions, even between immigrants, say for like housing. As we say in french, it's a "bourbier".

In the end, it's the same situation as in any other country where immigration has taken over the frontline of the political debate.

Open source software can definitely be tampered with if the maintainers aren't vigilant enough. Look at what happened with XZ/LZMA debacle a few months ago. Yeah it didn't make it into most distros but still...

And the sad reality, the maintainers for most useful OSS projects are essentially paid employees of a company. Which can be easily enticed/forced by governments.

And then there's the hardware manufacturers. Even the most hardened software running atop compromised hardware becomes worthless.

Moi aussi je suis francais.

> French want less criminals and immigrants in the street. Whatever it takes.

Maybe it's because I spent most of my time in big cities hanging out with relatively well-educated, often left-leaning, relatively young people, but I'm not getting that vibe at all.

Yes, you do have pathological cases of badly integrated immigrant communities - for example the quartiers Nord de Marseille, and yes, I've known more working class people who have to endure abuse from anti-social immigrant drug dealers to express some pretty far right views, but I'm not sure that reflects the majority of the French population. I don't watch the news much, but when I do I don't see anything about issues with integration, mostly stuff about Ukraine and Trump.

You could , and should, make the point about criminals and drug dealing affecting "normal citizens" without using imprecise and often wrong terms like immigrants.

Yes. Many people feel unsafe, are affected by crime, or feel they are. Yes, people are afraid. Whether they are, statistically actually more unsafe, or not (most often aren't) matters little. If people have a problem with criminal behaviour or abuse, they have a problem with criminal behaviour or abuse. Regardless of where that comes from. Being beaten up by three Moroccans hurts just as much as being beaten up by three Frenchies whose great grandparents were also born in Marseille.

It honestly doesn't help. First and foremost because many people will now dismiss the problems you may adress, simply because they are drowned in what appears racism, or at least ignorance.

The thing is, the criminals do tend, and when I say "tend to" I mean "as far as I can tell, always are, although obviously just because I've not seen a counter example doesn't mean one doesn't exist" always be from similar ethnic groups.

You've heard of the Italian Mafia? A criminal organization where ethnicity was literally a criteria for admission? Or, while not criminal, Jewish diamond merchants? Having a specific ethnic group specialize in a certain type of commercial activity isn't new.

When that activity is trafficking drugs from Morocco, against the wishes of the local state, it's not surprising that the organization is largely composed of people who happen to share a common language, culture and ethnicity with Morroco.

And if you're wondering why Morocco, well that's where all the hashish is grown.

You've possibly been to "Chinatown" in a large city (say NYC). Now remplace east Asian immigration with North Africa immigration, replace the stereotypical restaurants and dry cleaners with drug dealing, and you have north Marseille.

This unfortunate fact actually drives a lot of the racism. If you ignore it because it sounds racist well... The problem will remain, refusing to accept that there currently is an ethnic group that dominates illegal drug trafficking in a certain place, due to ties with the source of the drug doesn't make it any less true.

Similarly, of you're smuggling cocaine into the US, speaking Spanish is a really good trait to have. Because the country that produces most of the cocaine speaks that language.

How does naming the ethnicity of a group of criminals help in solving or preventing the crimes the commit?

If there's a clear, proven answer to that, one that works obviously better than other methods to solve or prevent it, then by all means: name this parameter.

In all other cases, it helps nothing. If anything, its counterproductive.

Let me give an example: a significant portion of Dutch heavy criminals, in the niche of harddrug trafficking were raised in poverty (relatively, its still the netherlands), in tough neighborhoods, by parents/families that often fall partly outside of the established social constructs.

If you look carefully, non of these parameters are "of certain ethnicity", but the enthnic group underlies many of these parameters. A populist politician, or racist, would say "they are all Marroccan". Which, except for the absolutists "all" is true, even. But it doesn't help one bit in preventing this crime, catching the criminals or preventing new kids to become the next generation.

What helps is finding the traits that do lead to them turning criminal; many of these traits may stem from their ethnic background. Mind you: these traits are by no means excuses, merely traits that allow a clearer and more effective treatment of the societal illness that these criminals are.

(Source: my ex treated a.o. criminals at a TBS. Where phyches "dissect" these people in order to treat them so that some might some day return to society)

> French want less criminals and immigrants in the street. Whatever it takes.

What about using the probability that a specific race or religion will commit crimes then target those people with aggressive tactics.

As for the public they could make those people feel unwelcomed through constant harassment in the hopes they leave the country.

Thus reducing the crime rate by any means.

----

I checked the murder rate and it's been on a downward trajectory for the last 30 years

https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/countries/fra/fra...

I haven't check other stats but what if your views on crime are being manipulated by people who have agenda that normally wouldn't be possible if the true reason was revealed?

> I haven't check other stats but what if your views on crime are being manipulated by people who have agenda that normally wouldn't be possible if the true reason was revealed?

Actually, you're right about murders, but you're wrong overall i'd say. Organized crime is on the rise since 2004? Maybe a bit before.

Politicians "reformed" the police, removed our "proximity police" which were basically social workers with physical and weapon training, who also were a great point of contact for future informants as it built a lot of trust in some cities (mostly western and northern France: it didn't work as well in the south and in Paris, but it worked truly great were i lived and their removal killed a lot of initiatives. My bet is that the failure in Marseille and Paris killed the initiative which worked great in small to medium cities).

And then circa 2008 they added another police reform that basically pushed police towards targeting petty criminals. Petty criminals turned to organized crime "en masse", and nowaday you have basically 3 crime families who run most of the crime in France. They reached Paris around 2011-2014, divided it cleanly around 2017 (i've heard multiple people talking about a missile launcher sighted in the 93 around 2015-2016 when i lived there, in at least 2 different location) and now politicians act surprised.

Can you provide some stats?

> I haven't check other stats but what if your views on crime are being manipulated by people who have agenda that normally wouldn't be possible if the true reason was revealed?

That is a known fact. Criminality rate drops but french people are feeling more and more insecure.

There is a media oligarchy in France (by billionaires) that pushes anything but left ideas (the left want an exit tax and a wealth tax, the last one is the Zucman tax). The idea that immigrants are criminals is easy to spread as the prison population is clearly different than the mean population of France (for various reasons). They are pushing it so hard that the population is feeling insecure even if the criminality rate drops.

Source about media oligarchy by billionaires: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a6/M%...

In France, like a lot of other countries, they are blaming everything on the immigrants.

Crime? Immigrants are doing it. Retirement age? Immigrants are spending the money.

These things are not backed up by data, but just like the US, or Nazi Germany, nobody cares, simply easier to choose an easy "solution" and blame immigrants.

> In 2019, 82% of the people implicated by the police and the gendarmerie declared themselves French and 18% foreigners, while they represent 93% and 7% of the population in France respectively.

https://www.insee.fr/fr/statistiques/5763585?sommaire=576363...

Immigrants commit a bit less crimes than the locals in France.

Yes, but inmate population is mostly immigrant descendants (for various reasons, poverty and been unable to work are the main ones).

The morally lazy racist explanation is helped by the famous logical fallacy that if most criminals are of foreign origin, it must be because most foreigners are criminals.

> to them the relevant knowledge is knowledge of what voters will support or tolerate

That's relevant knowledge. It's not the relevant knowledge. Another piece of relevant knowledge is facts about complex things like political science, cryptography, etc. Since politicians actually need to decide and implement things, as a side gig to being popular, lack of the proper knowledge to do so is a shortcoming.

> I would like to know what the public opinion on these issues is

Not big sample sizes, but I regularly ask and interview people from all sides of life, and to a simple question like "Do you think the police should spy on you if that catches criminals?" the answer is always a resounding "no". Especially young people. They just way "No way. We're not criminals". They "arguments" may be choppy, muddy waters, but I don't think peoples feelings about being spied on is much of a mystery.

Here in Sweden the answer from the general public often is "yes, I am honest and have nothing to hide".

Unlike French media, Swedish media does not have a well-developed tradition of confronting those in power and/or demanding accountability.

I often get frustrated by how easily interviewees dodge direct questions by answering something completely different, and get a "thank you" from the journalist in return, instead of a follow-up question.

That sounds like the US in the postwar era, under Eisenhower. It broke down quickly, as the journalists were not slow to catch on when the leaders abused that trust.

It's not just our media, it's our culture.

We have a looong and storied tradition of not liking the government, starting with our first revolution in 1789, continuing in 1830 and 1848, and further reinforced by the Nazi occupation during WW2. When I went to England, I heard the joke "where are all the French people? Oh right, probably on strike again".

I feel like some people would probably go out and protest if the government went so far as to suggest that maybe regular tooth brushing might be a good idea, just out of principle.

Yeah we don't do that here. Our culture was Pirate Bay and nation-wide torrenting until the government said it was stealing and people stopped because we are Honest Citizens.

No revolutions, unless explicitly permitted by the government.

Actually makes me a bit worried given the recent geopolitical development in the world.

One problem is that public opinion is also often at odds with facts. It's not hard to find a sequence of "Do you want X or Y" type questions that will send many people into a circle of intransitive preferences.

I think it is a valid point: politicians try to please their voters, and the voters don't know anything about how encryption works.

If you tell your voters: "I will force those tech people to develop encryption that can be accessed by the good guys but not by the bad guys", the average voter will say "yeah, that sounds reasonable".

I am frustrated that the politicians don't understand that they are making it worse for everybody, but that's probably a consequence of their voters not understanding it either. That's always the problem with complicated issues (e.g. climate change or covid). Voters typically vote without having a basic understanding of the topic.

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