Hacker News Reader

> I believe all birds and mammals have a pretty good "theory of mind", it's just hard to do an experiment to prove it

Our pet bird (sun conure) actively tries to lie and mislead when he's doing something naughty. Like he will go into the pantry to steal treats and quickly fly out pretending he wasn't in there when he hears you approaching.

This indicates he has some theory of mind. He has to understand there's a difference between what he knows and what we know, otherwise he wouldn't try to hide or obscure his actions.

And yes there is research showing/arguing that birds have theory of mind --> https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/144146926.pdf

I used to have a cat like this. He loved to drink out of the toilet bowl, which he knew he wasn't supposed to do. I would hear him lapping up the water and as I approached the bathroom he would quickly exit, almost but not quite running so as to not look too guilty, head held low and giving me a side eye like he was trying to see if I knew what he was doing in there.

Sun conjures are so smart this makes me smile :)

It gets better! He has learned that when he is naughty we will tell him to stop. If he doesn’t, we will eventually get up to come over and make him stop (shoo him away).

So now he uses that when he needs us to open a door. Threatening to be naughty is the most effective way to get human to come over. Then you fly to the door and human gets the message and opens door. Or treat box or whatever you want help with.

Little shits

How do you know the bird just isn't entertaining itself with its own reflection.

I don't, but your story could be accused of being anthropomorphic as much as my own. If it did have to work harder to forage though, it would have less time and energy to entertain itself.

A case where I know my own psychology has to do with it is the red winged blackbird which is a highly territorial bird which is always calling attention to nests that I'd otherwise ignore by buzz-bombing me and that I see high up in the air flapping frantically to nip at the tail feathers and harass huge hawks that are flapping languidly riding thermals. I see these birds sitting on top of "POSTED: NO TRESPASSING" signs all the time because these are convenient perches, although they have no idea that the sign fits their mindset really well. One of my photography goals in the next few weeks is to get some of those pictures though I don't have a particularly long lens so I'll have the problem that they'll probably try to buzz bomb me instead of sitting still to get their picture taken.

The same way you don't know if other humans are even conscious. Empathy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_other_minds

> As someone who's had quite a few dealings with animals (the family business is a horse farm) my interpretation is that human psychology is basically animal psychology with a "language instinct" bolted on as a peripheral.

Growing up with cats and dogs all my life I 100% agree with this. That has caused me to look at animals as individuals I can't communicate with instead of lower life forms that are brainless sacks of meat. They certainty are capable of thought and I am also convinced they share the same basic emotional states but humans have much more nuance and layers over them.

Where do you draw the line? Do you think dung beetles have emotions? Not being snarky, I just think it’s a difficult idea to pin down.

Why do you need a line?

Because we generally acknowledge a need to discriminate how we relate and interact with others. I treat a child differently than an adult, a dog differently than a human, and a plant differently from an animal. Humans as classification machines; I’m not sure we could interact in this world without it.

I mean, the whole predator/prey paradigm proves this, no? Both sides will act sneaky and use crafty mechanisms to get ahead of each other

I don’t think that fully encapsulates the issue. I can recognize some other being has subjective experience irrespective of any predator/prey relationship.