> They achieved it a few times before in 10000 lines, 20000 and 300000 lines and a few programmers in a few years.
Did they?
Did they?
> They achieved it a few times before in 10000 lines (Smalltalk-80 and earlier versions), a little over 20000 (Frank) and 300000 lines (Squeak/Etoys/Croquet)
Smalltalk-80 is significantly more than 10kloc. 6–10kloc gets you a Blue Book virtual machine without the compiler, editor, GUI, class library, etc. The full system is about 80kloc (Cuis is a currently runnable version of it, plus color: https://cuis.st/). Nobody's seen Frank (though you say you have a mostly working copy, I note that you haven't included a link). The 300kloc estimate for Squeak with all the trappings is at least in the ballpark but probably also a bit low.
None of the three contained spreadsheets, "social media" similar to Mastodon or MySpace, or a web browser, though they did contain a different piece of software they called a "browser" (the currently popular term for such software is "IDE" or "editor".)
You could implement those features inside that complexity budget, as long as you weren't trying to implement all of JS or HTML5, but they didn't. In the case of Smalltalk-80, those things hadn't been invented yet—though hypertext had, and Smalltalk-80 didn't even include a hypertext browser, though it has some similar features in its IDE. In the other cases it's because they didn't think it was a good idea for their purposes. The other two systems do support hypertext, at least.
These systems are indeed very inspirational, and they pack a lot of functionality into a small amount of code, but exaggerating their already remarkable achievements does nobody any favors.
I think it's the "blue book" that was used by the Smalltalk group to revive Smalltalk-80 in the form of Squeak. it's well-documented for instance in the "back to the future" paper. I haven't had the fortune of studying Squeak or other Smalltalks in depth but it seems fairly clear to me that there are very powerful ideas being expressed very concisely in these systems. likewise with VPRI/STEPS.
so although it might be somewhat comparing apples to oranges, I do think when, e.g., Alan Kay mentions in a talk that his group built a full personal computing system (operating system, "apps", etc) in ~20kLOC (iirc, but it's the same order of magnitude anyway), that it is important to take this seriously and consider the implications.
similar when one considers Sutherland's Sketchpad, Engelbart's mother of all demos, Hypercard, etc. and contrasts with (pardon my French) the absolute trash that is most of what we use today (web browsers - not to knock the people who work on them, some of whom are clearly extremely capable and intelligent - generally no WYSIWYG, text and parsing all over the place, etc etc)
like, I just saw a serious rendering glitch just now while typing this, where some text that came first was being displayed after text that came later, which made me go back and erase text just to realize the text was fine, type it again, and see the same glitch again. that to me seems completely insane. how is there such a rendering error in a textbox in 2025 on an extremely simple website?
and this all points to a great deal of things that Alan Kay points out. some of his quips: "point if view is worth 80 IQ points", "stop reinventing the flat tire", and "most ideas are mediocre down to bad".
I'm familiar with that work, although I haven't finished reading Engelbart. Some of what I've written about these topics can be found at https://dercuano.github.io/topics/steps.html https://dercuano.github.io/topics/sketchpad.html https://dercuano.github.io/topics/smalltalk.html https://dercuano.github.io/topics/self-sustaining-systems.ht... https://dercuano.github.io/topics/small-is-beautiful.html https://dercuano.github.io/topics/hypertext.html
You are likely to be particularly interested in my "Commentaries on reading Engelbart’s “Augmenting Human Intellect”", https://dercuano.github.io/notes/augmenting.html.
morphle said "you can write a complete operating system and all the functionality of the mayor apps (word processing, graphics, spreadsheets, social media, WYSIWYG, browsers) and the hardware it runs on in less than 20000 lines of (high level language) code. They achieved it a few times before in 10000 lines (Smalltalk-80 and earlier versions), a little over 20000 (Frank) and 300000 lines (Squeak/Etoys/Croquet) and a few programmers in a few years."
to which you replied "did they?"
to which I replied something along the lines of "you can take a look at Smalltalk systems" to answer your question. to clarify, I meant you can look at what the extent of what they were capable of is, and look at their code. which, again, to me is a bit apples to oranges, but is nonetheless something that ought not to be dismissed.
thanks for the links btw!
The summary is: no, they didn't.