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Comment by dm03514 | Hacker News Reader

First of all I think this article was put together quite well, it was succinct had a great flow and was very easy to follow. The data was laid out to support the case; overall it was great to read.

Understanding a problem requires a holistic view of the larger system. An egg producer may say prices are higher Because supply is lower due to culling. Part of that statement is true. The author then zooms out to better understand the larger system.

The truth of a matter deviates significantly from one party’s assertions.

it’s scary to me that people lack the skills, the desire or incentives to understand and objectively seek understanding of what’s happening around us especially in highly charged US political landscape. This isn’t like pure scientific pursuit of knowledge but a more practical day to day ability to question, understand and gather new information with the purpose of developing an objective understanding of the world.

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> Understanding a problem requires a holistic view of the larger system.

It does, but the result is extremely uncomfortable. And the solving it will require actions that are even more uncomfortable.

You have to come to grips with the fact that there are monopolies at every single level. There is no inventory anywhere except bottom. There is no over capacity at any level.

Consequently, supply and demand simply do not work. There is no "excess supply" to use to make extra profit by eating the extra demand. There is no upstart supplier who can absorb the extra demand. The big suppliers can ratchet up prices with zero consequences. What are you gonna do about it?

> it’s scary to me that people lack the skills, the desire or incentives to understand and objectively seek understanding of what’s happening around us especially in highly charged US political landscape.

They don't lack the skills. They have chosen to treat politics like sportsball rather than something to actively think about.

>"The big suppliers can ratchet up prices with zero consequences. What are you gonna do about it?"

I think one (uncomfortable) solution is this. Consumers should budget their expenses. So when the egg prices increase, they should consume less to maintain their budget for eggs, for example, a month.

This will mean that when the companies increases prices, more of their stock will remain unsold, increasing their expenses stocking them to go up. This could also cause disruptions on their supply chain. This should force them to reduce prices.

you said “budget” in the context of America. 93.98% of americans are not finacially literate enough to budget. this is by design…

It doesn't have to be so formal, and for most people it's more like "wow eggs have gotten expensive, I'll skip buying them this week" that is what I do, same with beef and anything else that just seems like it costs too much. Or I'll shop around, there are people selling eggs from their home-kept chickens at the side of the road for less than supermarket prices (I realize that doesn't scale, at least not quickly).

you are the 6.02% :)

I do the same for EVERYTHING. my wife and I make a decent living but we drew lines when the prices started going up. we can afford it, not just eggs but also other things that have been price gouged in the last couple of years. issue is of course there are not enough of us to make a difference

There is no economic system that can accommodate a population that refuses to respond to prices. That said, I think your numbers are overly pessimistic.

The critical part to remember is that people dont have to do the math and do the budgetary calculus. If they cant afford the eggs, they cant buy them.

I think there is small percentage of people that cannot afford the eggs. we are not talking diamond rings here - even if dozen eggs were $20 it is still $20 - most families can afford that...

>What are you gonna do about it?

There are some other options:

Substitute blood - https://nordicfoodlab.wordpress.com/2014/01/07/2013-9-blood-... - I am not sure why people don't do this but maybe they are squeamish. Food grade blood is cheap and readily available from slaughterhouses and butchers.

Buy some chickens

> I am not sure why people don't do this

I don't substituting blood for eggs is a widely-known option. I'd never heard of it before now, and I have a somewhat above-average amateur interest in cooking and food science.

What am I gonna do about it? I'm going to start buying from the small farm half a mile from me that has eggs in an honor box at the end of their driveway.

There is no inventory anywhere except bottom? Fine. I'll go to the bottom.

> They have chosen to treat politics like sportsball rather than something to actively think about.

Not going to argue about that one...

Nailed it. To disinter-mediate the monopoly vertical, you must source locally, and work together to ensure that local supply remains operational. You "step out" of the capture.

> What are you gonna do about it?

Substitute tofu?

Even at $6.50/dozen, eggs are cheaper than tofu, which is $3 for 14 oz where I'm at.

FWIW, Costco or low-cost Asian grocers are less than half that price for tofu.

And in terms of protein, a dozen eggs is pretty close to the same amount of protein as 14oz of firm tofu... so my cost for tofu protein is like a quarter of my cost for egg protein. (Organic in either case, fwiw.)

Get some dried lentils.

They last a long time, are cheap as shit, and extremely healthy with the lowest dollar per gram of protein and couple it with a bunch of fiber and whole host of beneficial micronutrients.

Cottage cheese has 2.5x the protein content of eggs, and is currently cheaper. Or you can mix the two for the same taste but cost savings.

Cottage cheese is a terrible idea with bird flu floating around in dairy, complete chaos in the systems that are supposed to inspect these supply chains, and voluntary testing requirements that meant even when the inspection systems were not chaotic they were way behind the 8 ball.

And for obvious reasons, bird flu infecting mammals is likely to be a greater risk to humans than that present in birds.

> Cottage cheese is a terrible idea with bird flu floating around in dairy

Almost all dairy in any normal supermarket has been pasteurized. I would say "all" but I'm sure there is at least a single exception somewhere even if I can't find it.

Raw milk products at your "natural" farmer's market on the other hand ...

That's ridiculous. Cottage cheese is typically pasteurized, therefore safe.

(We're not talking about cottage cheese from raw cow's milk).

Cottage cheese is a fine idea, hysteria about bird flu is overdone, cottage cheese is healthier than processed meat, in the US. Remember Chipotle's multiple meat handling scandals that sickened 1100? You can't point to similar for cottage cheese.

You could make it your self for the cost of soybeans basically. It's a cheap food sold as a gourmet item because it's rare. Like a lot of other fermented foods.

    > It's a cheap food sold as a gourmet item because it's rare.

This statement is _entirely_ dependent upon where you live. If you have lots of East/SouthEast Asian immigrants in your community, it will be a regular commodity in any supermarket -- "ethnic" or not. Lots of readers here live in the Bay Area. A regular block of 300/400g fresh tofu is probably cheap as chips in their local supermarket.

    > Like a lot of _other_ fermented foods.

Are you implying that tofu is a fermented food? It is not. (FYI: In Chinese food culture, there is something called fermented tofu [and even stinky tofu], but that is different than non-fermented tofu.)

I meant "cheap" because it is easy to make from scratch.

https://www.google.com/search?q=how+do+I++make+tofu+from+scr...

As for "other fermented foods" your final sentence admits it works as used in my post.

Eggs are 9.99 per dozen where I am. Tri-tip is $3.99/lb and pork can often be had for $1.99. Hell, a month ago we bought a 20lb ham for $0.49/lb.

huh... we haven't gotten there yet in my neck of the woods, but where you are, pound for pound, boneless chicken meat is probably cheaper than chicken eggs.

> They have chosen to treat politics like sportsball rather than something to actively think about.

More like neo-religion.

"The big suppliers can ratchet up prices with zero consequences. What are you gonna do about it?"

If I was that bothered about eggs, I'd simply grow my own. Americans on average have way more space to mess around in than say most Europeans - the place is fucking huge. Chickens are very easy to "grow your own".

I'm not an American and clearly you have managed to get your collective knickers in a twist over a non issue, which almost certainly means that there is a bigger picture and a rather more important issue that really needs fixing.

Please stop fiddling whilst Rome burns.

A lot of Americans live in houses and neighborhoods where keeping chickens is simply not allowed.

Source: just got done cutting some pine trees on a hill behind my house because we got a notice. They will absolutely throw a fit, if we kept chickens

The problem isn't the laws and the prices and the monopolies and all that stuff.

The problem is that people don't see anything wrong or shameful about being the person who was bitching about the noises roosters make in 2017 and then also being the person bitching about inflexible supply chains and egg prices in 2025.

If it wasn't eggs it'd be some other thing.

Every state has right-to-farm laws. Most only protect commercial farming, but not all and sometimes the definition of commercial is rather loose, so it might be worth looking into.

But those are often trumped by county or municipal laws. e.g. Most urban/suburban parts of California either restrict or require permits to raise backyard chickens (also, predators are a huge problem):

https://www.omlet.us/guide/chickens/laws_about_keeping_chick...

https://www.quora.com/Are-backyard-chickens-legal-in-Califor...

(Palo Alto: Up to six hens. Mountain View: Up to four hens. Los Altos: One hen per 1000 sq feet, no permit required. Sunnyvale: Zoning laws apply. Santa Clara: zoning restrictions apply. San Jose: Up to six without a permit, up to 20 with a permit. San Mateo: Up to 10 birds, depending on plot size, with a minimum plot requirement of 2500 sq feet (excludes most people). No permit required. San Francisco: Up to four, roosters allowed, no permit required. Oakland: No number restrictions, no permit required. Berkeley: No number restrictions, no permit required, roosters allowed. Anarchy!)

What we need roundabout now is a webcam campaign/tutorial on legal backyard chicken raising...

    > San Francisco: Up to four, roosters allowed, no permit required

Holy shit: SF is really dense in some areas, but people still have backyards, e.g., Mission District. Can you imagine being surrounded by neighbors with roosters crowing when the sun rises? It would be hell.

No idea about how viable this in each of those cities, but maybe 2025 is the time for us to go read https://www.reddit.com/r/BackYardChickens/ (similar to bleach, hand-sanitizer and toilet paper in 2020.) Yes the noise around dawn is why roosters are sometimes restricted (or make your neighbors way more likely to complain). My neighbor in San Jose had a rooster that crowed 25% of mornings.

I should have said above the $$$ reason predators are a huge problem in urban/suburban areas is you can't legally shoot them/ use BB guns, and it's near-impossible to use poison (if you have pets or small kids, or your neighbors' pets pass through). So if you regularly have to spend $500++ on a professional exterminator for a single fox or raccoon, there goes your entire $ viability. It's not at all like a farm in a rural county. HN business idea: is there any multiple infrared camera security setup that can behaviorally distinguish between predators vs your own pet, in the middle of the night? without needing to AirTag your pets?

I have my own and I don't even like eggs that much. I do however like their noises, and for pest control, so I keep getting new birds.

$33 for 6 birds, last month. They're not fully feathered yet.

noise control?

Probably means the noise, ie clucking, not noise control.

yes, i forgot a comma, your sibling is right, i like the noises they make, especially at night when they're sleeping.

you cannot just wake up and decide to grow your own, it is regulated heavily :)

Here are my local laws, not too crazy.

https://www.legislation.act.gov.au/View/di/2010-89/current/h...

sorry mate - I was referring to the USA without saying so :)

> This isn’t like pure scientific pursuit of knowledge but a more practical day to day ability to question, understand and gather new information with the purpose of developing an objective understanding of the world.

you've just described scientific persuit.

Just because the object of said persuit pertains to everyday life, doesn't mean it isn't scientific. The goal of science is to understand truth, and discern it from falsehoods (which might appear true intuitively).

Science isn't about researching niche, or cutting edge things. It's about the method, rigor and ability to change one's mind based on evidence regardless of priors.

Yes, and unfortunately the “desire” for scientific research of everyday life is hard to maintain because frankly in our current times it has dawned on many that scientific research is unable, by itself, to prevent or limit actions taken that fly in the face of the said research. So some domain experts have realized that upping their social media game is a better investment than broadening their scientific research efforts, because you’ve already lost if you are unable to derail a delusional narrative in real time. It’s the era of yellow journalism 2.0.

> Understanding a problem requires a holistic view of the larger system.

In my experience, people don’t care about systems, they care about outcomes. The world is driven by people who care about outcomes and held together by people who understand systems.

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