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Comment by kubb | Hacker News Reader

Is this common? Maybe that's one of the reasons that people push for RTO, they can't work alone?

When I was in office, I had a lot of trouble working even though I am most productive while body doubling. The overhead lights, the random interruptions from people that know you or want something from you . . .. After I got to campus, I spend most days down at the coffee shop, or a local cafe or something of that nature.

Being around people, with distractions removed was the key for me. Just me, and my laptop.

As for how common it is? IDK, but I don't see RTO as being the key (might work for some people?).

When I was work from home, I was a lot more productive by myself, however when I found I had a really tough project that I was having trouble starting, a couple hours of body doubling at a local cafe tended to help. I.e., I'm going to the coffee shop for 2 hours to do this one task.

Oh man, I work so well in a busy cafe. I'm not sure what quality it is, but being around a bunch of people who aren't bothering me with questions allows me to get into flow.

The quality is probably pretty good. This is called body doubling and is exactly the concept here.

Yeah, being in an office is only helpful if people you are working with understand and respect your desire to focus.

It’s anecdotally definitely one reason people work in co-working spaces, or even coffee shops and the like.

Some people think these are just used by people who have no quiet space, or no comfortable space, at home - but that’s not the case.

You don't need the physical presence though. Find another neurospicy person at work and you can do it with them remotely.

I feel like I'm opposite of this camp or have some excessive attention disorder but not on the spectrum or anything either. I just can't focus at all in this situation, can't work in coffeeshops, could never study in libraries, can't multitask/read/study/create/etc if the TV or radio is on. My brain is kind of single threaded.

I don't even like using productivity tools or todo apps beyond just listing things at a high level on a post it / white board so I don't forget about something and can prioritize/sort them. Creating daily goals and breaking things down into bite sized actions just seems like a waste of time doing what is obvious to accomplish the larger objective IMO.

That said, I do like working in the an out-of-home office. My home does pull me off my screen and I end up tinkering in the yard, cleaning the pool, etc. throughout the day at the expense of GSD

Haha that's me. My wife has a photo of me mixing concrete while on a call.

Same re productivity tools. I just use text files to write things down - extremely high level, never in detail. Always seemed like a waste of time tbh.

I feel like I don't even know why some days I can focus, and some I can't. It seems to be completely arbitrary. Sometimes I'll have the most perfect conditions and it'll be impossible to start working.

But I've never, not once, managed to work with the TV on.

Good to know I’m not alone haha! I also have some of the concrete pouring type moments. I built a pool house last Spring during work hours in between and during meetings. I was able to do my actual productive work in evening after kids went to bed. Helps that I’m more of a manager than an individual contributor but nobody at work even noticed.

Also same productivity comes in bursts for me. Sometimes I’ll start the week off with a bang and get everything I needed to done on Monday. I’ll even go all night if I’m in this flow state. Then I will sleep until noon and take a leisurely pace the rest of week. Other weeks i procrastinate until im forced to get something done on Friday. Because I know this about myself, I try to think of work life one week at a time.

This is funny, I've been running remote companies for mostly the last 20 years (with physical offices during some of the time.) When I first saw the coworking concept and the inside of a WeWork I thought none of these people are working, they are just screwing around.

I'm just like this too - you end up aware of all sorts of things you definitely don't want to know/care about in the environment, be it a coffeeshop, library, office space etc.

I'm not sure how common this is, but I would guess most people experience it to some degree.

I've worked remotely since 2013, and love the convenience, but still need to get out from time to time. I've noticed this in an office setting as well. After ~4 years at my first job, every day in the same room and with the same ~10 people, I noticed that the change in atmosphere at my 2nd job (which had many/varying people in proximity) made it easier to focus.

I don't know if it's that people are there as much as it is a change of scenery, but when a place is bustling it makes it feel like it's constantly changing.

The reasons that managers/execs push for RTO are complex, and sometimes disingenuous and nefarious.

As someone who’s worked remote (and async) and also in big offices, sometimes I see individual workers celebrating RTO for misguided reasons:

1. They use work as a social space

2. They enjoy the break of getting out of their house/from family/partner

3. The ritual of going to and from work as a separate space is helpful

All of these are solvable without mandating RTO, so it is frustrating when workers align themselves with RTO mandates when they could just solve the above.

1. Sometimes people don’t pursue friendships outside their work or family. You should! It is healthy!

2. I sometimes see people not set boundaries during work days, and have their own partners not respect their boundaries (“please don’t come in my office when I’m on a call”). Here, they’re leaning on RTO to set a boundary on their behalf.

3. During WFH in 2020-2021, I set a ritual where I’d go for a walk around the block with a coffee before returning to my small Manhattan apartment. I used Phillips Hues to change the lighting to colder when in work mode.

Offices are a bonus when you live near to them, but mandating their usage is crazy. If workers don’t feel happier and more productive when going into an office, and recognize it as an advantage for them doing work, then execs should recognize that the office is lacking somehow.

We sometimes decry the lack of "third places", neither home nor work (or school). People go there to be social in more flexible ways. I have imagined opening a coffee shop/art gallery by that name.

Maybe not such a great name now, since the second places are getting murkier. But the need is still there.

There's a (very good) brewery with an (excellent) tap room in Milwaukee named Third Space Brewing, not such a terrible idea. https://thirdspacebrewing.com.

I've setup and worked there many afternoons when I've been in Wisconsin. The drinking culture is different in the upper Midwest though, it's not party thing (always) as much as a social activity. You're not expected to get drunk, think France and wine.

My mom grew up in Wisconsin, in a farm town that was little more than a crossroads with a church, a school (K-8, high schoolers went to the nearest big-town high school), a post office... and a bar. The bar was for the farmers to meet and socialize over a beer. As you said, not really to party, just have human contact and find out what else is going on in the area.

I like that RTO keeps my job exclusive and I get paid more for being willing to come in and rub shoulders with management. I work for my family and to create a better life for them — not for some abstract goal of having the most productive environment (to enrich much larger shareholders than me). I paid a lot of money to live close to these places for work and now I’m reaping the benefit.

No pain no gain, basically.

It's not real helpful to label a bunch of fairly ordinary. useful, and healthy, aspects of work misguided and then offer no alternative suggestions to address your points.

You go for a walk, live in a tiny apartment in Manhattan, and use lighting colour to give a sense of 'work place'.

Well guess what, your circumstances probably don't generalise.

I'm sure my own rituals don't generalize, but are you saying that the alternative to that is mandatory RTO?

I didn’t say that.

office hours is something i consider a positive, when looking at a job. i get that i could/should solve those things on my own, but it requires executive function and i'd much rather outsource some of it

with both the social and the walking thing, i find it easy to get stuck in a negative feedback loop, where not doing it makes it harder to do it. having a work-mandated minimum walk and social time prevents stalling, making it easier to maintain the habits outside of work as well

this perspective might be flavoured by being neurospicy, though. presumably, if i wasn't prone to stalling my habits that way, it'd be less appealing to tie them to a job or shcool or whatever else

(i currently work remote, though. office is positive, but not positive enough to outweigh the salary difference of working for a local company)

That people have different needs than you doesn't mean they're misguided.

People want what they want, not what you or I think they should want.

I like the walk around the block with a change in lighting. I always preferred an office within a 20 minute walk or bike ride but considered a similar walk around the block approach even writing from home but never got the routine set.

I wouldn't say "the break of getting out of their house/from family/partner" is misguided. I remember during COVID wfh, my co-workers with spouses and kids were not at all happy having all those people together all day, trying to accomplish tasks on different schedules and needs for quiet or collaboration. Add to that most of them didn't have a set up for two adults to work in one office space, and all of them trying to share the home internet.

Anecdotally, I was incredibly productive for a few weeks after switching to forced WFH in 2020. I didn't want to look lazy/bored around my wife, so I did every accumulated task on my list.

Now I use my biweekly office day to clear my backlogged tasks for the same reason: if you want to look busy, might as well work.

Nope, not with today's open plan offices. Body doubling works because both people involved are aware of support each other's intention and focus. At work you're all there for the same reason, broadly speaking, but you may have radically different and conflicting tasks. There's no way everyone can be fully accommodating of everyone else's needs. Plus, the environment is some unpleasant aggregate of barely tolerable for everyone: noise levels, temperature, lighting, ergonomics.

Want me back in the office? Give me an office, with one, maybe two, office mates that I get along with. A door I (we) can close when needed.

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