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Body Doubling

bodydoubling.com

143 pointsrzk80 comments

This is a concept primarily for people with ADHD by the way, if you're not in this target group you might not understand why it's needed, as we already see in this thread.

If this concept resonates, https://www.flow.club/ is where you'll find people who practice this technique regularly. We use it to do everything from the work we care about and want to be even better at, to work we don't care for like taxes, bills and laundry but have some mental block or emotional resistance to.

I think people with ADHD are hyper attuned to the effort that goes into everything from the moment we wake up (related term: executive dysfunction), so we look for ways to facilitate "doing." Other people who have similar levels of awareness tend to be self-employed (your time costs you), working parents (limited time and energy) and graduate students (long-term dread), but not everyone. And no, I don't think this is a purely remote work issue.

With all the AI discussion I'll just take a moment to talk about humans. HN probably thinks anything having to do with other humans are yuck especially on the internet and would be proven right most of the time. But humans and internet-mediated humans can also be great if the product does a good and careful job to allow their best parts shine. That's why we love HN and admire dang, and we try to make https://www.flow.club/ another awesome human corner of the internet.

I'm just so tired of this VC urge to monetize every possible aspect of human interaction. You're selling yourself as a "community", but instead of actually doing that you lure people in with a free trial, to then use the friendships people make to lock them into a ridiculous 40€/month subscription.

Sorry, but I'm not paying 3x a netflix subscription for what amounts to little more than a glorified discord bot.

Actually, now that I look for it, I found this exact product as a discord server. And would point people there instead: https://discord.com/invite/study

I joined that Discord, did a session, and promptly left afterwards. Sometimes you really do get what you pay for, if even as a Veblen good. I joined a community last year for example that costs hundreds of dollars a month and the price itself acts as a filter for being around the types of people you want to be around.

Mentioned this below as well. Seconding Flow Club. I don't have ADHD, but am just a new parent and god having an "appointment" w/ other people for deep work changes everything.

Shoutout to Ricky and co!

I’ve been doing this for a long time, calling them “study parties”. It works quite well for me. I wonder if this is some sort of indication that I have adhd, or if it’s just a generally effective strategy.

I used to host weekly virtual co-working for founders who needed some accountability. We got a lot done during those sessions and ultimately met my co-founder through it. Later today we'll be body doubling virtually to get our taxes done together.

Why do you say “used to host”? What made you stop?

https://web.archive.org/web/20250116111830/https://bodydoubl...

I’ve noticed this quite a few times before when working with my systems administrator: He calls me in for a debugging session of a problem he‘s been stuck on for some time and within a few minutes (or less than a minute) he finds the solution. I’ve always seen it as him having to reorganize his thoughts to give me a somewhat structured introduction into the problem. And somewhere along the path he finds the missing piece.

Attempts have been made to replicate this effect, with limited success, through the use of a rubber duck:

https://rubberduckdebugging.com/

The general idea is to first try explaining your problem to the duck, which is thought to activate the same problem restructuring pathways. However, I've always found that a human makes for a much better rubber duck in practice. Something about the immediacy of the conversation helps my brain to stay on task and not get distracted partway through the explanation.

This, absolutely. Can totally relate.

This happens to me too but I also find taking a walk is all that I need and often try not to drag other people into it

Rubber ducking works better with a live duck.

You don't necessarily need the person to be there. My house is never cleaner than after I've been on the phone with a friend. My mind shuts off, my body does all the chores I've been procrastinating, while my friend does her art, and we both catch up on life.

Comparatively, working in a coffee shop does not make me get more work done, I just feel better.

I’ve intuitively know about ‘body doubling’ for years but had never heard the term. I’ve just always understood that I tend to get the most work done in coworking spaces and cafes and not when I’m at home by myself.

I can confirm this. As soon as there is someone else near me, I become productive. When I am alone I have no big motivation to do anything.

I’m complete opposite.

Me too. For example, if there was someone nearby I wouldn't be on here typing these words.

I'm the same way; every time I read about body doubling, it feels like it's written by an alien who's trying to trick me into something.

This was the only way I could study in college. I had “study groups” but in reality all we did was sit quietly next to each other working through our own material. Worked amazingly.

I’m not ADHD, but that’s probably a bigger discussion

I find this also works when you go to coffeeshops that have a lot of people working

I am the exact opposite. I used to hear about people going to coffee shops and doing work and I would go there and I’d just be completely distracted by everything around me. I was forced to work in an open office for a while and I would have to leave early and risk getting in trouble so that I could get work done at home.

That's interesting, though I feel the same about open offices.

The difference for me is strangers vs. colleagues.

There's a lot more interruptions when you know the people around you.

Is this common? Maybe that's one of the reasons that people push for RTO, they can't work alone?

When I was in office, I had a lot of trouble working even though I am most productive while body doubling. The overhead lights, the random interruptions from people that know you or want something from you . . .. After I got to campus, I spend most days down at the coffee shop, or a local cafe or something of that nature.

Being around people, with distractions removed was the key for me. Just me, and my laptop.

As for how common it is? IDK, but I don't see RTO as being the key (might work for some people?).

When I was work from home, I was a lot more productive by myself, however when I found I had a really tough project that I was having trouble starting, a couple hours of body doubling at a local cafe tended to help. I.e., I'm going to the coffee shop for 2 hours to do this one task.

Oh man, I work so well in a busy cafe. I'm not sure what quality it is, but being around a bunch of people who aren't bothering me with questions allows me to get into flow.

The quality is probably pretty good. This is called body doubling and is exactly the concept here.

Yeah, being in an office is only helpful if people you are working with understand and respect your desire to focus.

It’s anecdotally definitely one reason people work in co-working spaces, or even coffee shops and the like.

Some people think these are just used by people who have no quiet space, or no comfortable space, at home - but that’s not the case.

You don't need the physical presence though. Find another neurospicy person at work and you can do it with them remotely.

The reasons that managers/execs push for RTO are complex, and sometimes disingenuous and nefarious.

As someone who’s worked remote (and async) and also in big offices, sometimes I see individual workers celebrating RTO for misguided reasons:

1. They use work as a social space

2. They enjoy the break of getting out of their house/from family/partner

3. The ritual of going to and from work as a separate space is helpful

All of these are solvable without mandating RTO, so it is frustrating when workers align themselves with RTO mandates when they could just solve the above.

1. Sometimes people don’t pursue friendships outside their work or family. You should! It is healthy!

2. I sometimes see people not set boundaries during work days, and have their own partners not respect their boundaries (“please don’t come in my office when I’m on a call”). Here, they’re leaning on RTO to set a boundary on their behalf.

3. During WFH in 2020-2021, I set a ritual where I’d go for a walk around the block with a coffee before returning to my small Manhattan apartment. I used Phillips Hues to change the lighting to colder when in work mode.

Offices are a bonus when you live near to them, but mandating their usage is crazy. If workers don’t feel happier and more productive when going into an office, and recognize it as an advantage for them doing work, then execs should recognize that the office is lacking somehow.

We sometimes decry the lack of "third places", neither home nor work (or school). People go there to be social in more flexible ways. I have imagined opening a coffee shop/art gallery by that name.

Maybe not such a great name now, since the second places are getting murkier. But the need is still there.

There's a (very good) brewery with an (excellent) tap room in Milwaukee named Third Space Brewing, not such a terrible idea. https://thirdspacebrewing.com.

I've setup and worked there many afternoons when I've been in Wisconsin. The drinking culture is different in the upper Midwest though, it's not party thing (always) as much as a social activity. You're not expected to get drunk, think France and wine.

My mom grew up in Wisconsin, in a farm town that was little more than a crossroads with a church, a school (K-8, high schoolers went to the nearest big-town high school), a post office... and a bar. The bar was for the farmers to meet and socialize over a beer. As you said, not really to party, just have human contact and find out what else is going on in the area.

I like that RTO keeps my job exclusive and I get paid more for being willing to come in and rub shoulders with management. I work for my family and to create a better life for them — not for some abstract goal of having the most productive environment (to enrich much larger shareholders than me). I paid a lot of money to live close to these places for work and now I’m reaping the benefit.

No pain no gain, basically.

It's not real helpful to label a bunch of fairly ordinary. useful, and healthy, aspects of work misguided and then offer no alternative suggestions to address your points.

You go for a walk, live in a tiny apartment in Manhattan, and use lighting colour to give a sense of 'work place'.

Well guess what, your circumstances probably don't generalise.

I'm sure my own rituals don't generalize, but are you saying that the alternative to that is mandatory RTO?

I didn’t say that.

office hours is something i consider a positive, when looking at a job. i get that i could/should solve those things on my own, but it requires executive function and i'd much rather outsource some of it

with both the social and the walking thing, i find it easy to get stuck in a negative feedback loop, where not doing it makes it harder to do it. having a work-mandated minimum walk and social time prevents stalling, making it easier to maintain the habits outside of work as well

this perspective might be flavoured by being neurospicy, though. presumably, if i wasn't prone to stalling my habits that way, it'd be less appealing to tie them to a job or shcool or whatever else

(i currently work remote, though. office is positive, but not positive enough to outweigh the salary difference of working for a local company)

That people have different needs than you doesn't mean they're misguided.

People want what they want, not what you or I think they should want.

I like the walk around the block with a change in lighting. I always preferred an office within a 20 minute walk or bike ride but considered a similar walk around the block approach even writing from home but never got the routine set.

I wouldn't say "the break of getting out of their house/from family/partner" is misguided. I remember during COVID wfh, my co-workers with spouses and kids were not at all happy having all those people together all day, trying to accomplish tasks on different schedules and needs for quiet or collaboration. Add to that most of them didn't have a set up for two adults to work in one office space, and all of them trying to share the home internet.

I'm not sure how common this is, but I would guess most people experience it to some degree.

I've worked remotely since 2013, and love the convenience, but still need to get out from time to time. I've noticed this in an office setting as well. After ~4 years at my first job, every day in the same room and with the same ~10 people, I noticed that the change in atmosphere at my 2nd job (which had many/varying people in proximity) made it easier to focus.

I don't know if it's that people are there as much as it is a change of scenery, but when a place is bustling it makes it feel like it's constantly changing.

I feel like I'm opposite of this camp or have some excessive attention disorder but not on the spectrum or anything either. I just can't focus at all in this situation, can't work in coffeeshops, could never study in libraries, can't multitask/read/study/create/etc if the TV or radio is on. My brain is kind of single threaded.

I don't even like using productivity tools or todo apps beyond just listing things at a high level on a post it / white board so I don't forget about something and can prioritize/sort them. Creating daily goals and breaking things down into bite sized actions just seems like a waste of time doing what is obvious to accomplish the larger objective IMO.

That said, I do like working in the an out-of-home office. My home does pull me off my screen and I end up tinkering in the yard, cleaning the pool, etc. throughout the day at the expense of GSD

Haha that's me. My wife has a photo of me mixing concrete while on a call.

Same re productivity tools. I just use text files to write things down - extremely high level, never in detail. Always seemed like a waste of time tbh.

I feel like I don't even know why some days I can focus, and some I can't. It seems to be completely arbitrary. Sometimes I'll have the most perfect conditions and it'll be impossible to start working.

But I've never, not once, managed to work with the TV on.

Good to know I’m not alone haha! I also have some of the concrete pouring type moments. I built a pool house last Spring during work hours in between and during meetings. I was able to do my actual productive work in evening after kids went to bed. Helps that I’m more of a manager than an individual contributor but nobody at work even noticed.

Also same productivity comes in bursts for me. Sometimes I’ll start the week off with a bang and get everything I needed to done on Monday. I’ll even go all night if I’m in this flow state. Then I will sleep until noon and take a leisurely pace the rest of week. Other weeks i procrastinate until im forced to get something done on Friday. Because I know this about myself, I try to think of work life one week at a time.

This is funny, I've been running remote companies for mostly the last 20 years (with physical offices during some of the time.) When I first saw the coworking concept and the inside of a WeWork I thought none of these people are working, they are just screwing around.

I'm just like this too - you end up aware of all sorts of things you definitely don't want to know/care about in the environment, be it a coffeeshop, library, office space etc.

Anecdotally, I was incredibly productive for a few weeks after switching to forced WFH in 2020. I didn't want to look lazy/bored around my wife, so I did every accumulated task on my list.

Now I use my biweekly office day to clear my backlogged tasks for the same reason: if you want to look busy, might as well work.

Nope, not with today's open plan offices. Body doubling works because both people involved are aware of support each other's intention and focus. At work you're all there for the same reason, broadly speaking, but you may have radically different and conflicting tasks. There's no way everyone can be fully accommodating of everyone else's needs. Plus, the environment is some unpleasant aggregate of barely tolerable for everyone: noise levels, temperature, lighting, ergonomics.

Want me back in the office? Give me an office, with one, maybe two, office mates that I get along with. A door I (we) can close when needed.

A friend of mine used to call me with technical/programming issues. He would explain the problem on the phone and suddenly come up with the solution, then thank me profusely even though I didn't really do anything. I don't know whether he was an ADHD case or not, but I thought he was, and he used to speak with a pronounced stutter especially when excited. Spending any time with him would make clear why: thoughts and ideas came at him so fast they were difficult to serialize through speech.

Anyways, I'm not sure whether this is "body doubling" or "rubber ducking", or even if there isn't significant overlap between the two concepts.

I happened to do this at work with a coworker, and it was fantastic. I immediately went from being able to get nothing done to being able to be productive.

This reminds me of https://www.focusmate.com/

I used to get more done within an hour on the sofa next to my ex watching her shows, than I did in the four hours preceding it at my desk.

As a single guy now, I have the "leisure" to stretch my work hours far longer into the night and I get just as much done as when I was with her.

Shoutout https://www.flow.club/

Fantastic body doubling service

I don't feel I should pay for such a thing.

then don't I made one and the free tier is generous enough that most people just stick to the free (much to my despair) ^.^

See also http://focusmate.com, http://focus101.com, http://caveday.com, and many more!

focus101 is totally the best one and I'm not saying that because I built it :D

Tried most of them! Caveday is just too many people in a room and the rest are really awkward just one-on-one. Flow club hits the midpoint, with 4-8 people in there, everyone has stated goals and it's obvious when someone is missing their goals.

It can still be a liiitle hit or miss depending on the club host. But a good host on a pomodoro session with actual verbal check-ins is 100x better than coffee.

Focusmate discussed on HN before, eg.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21352305

Focusmate – Virtual Coworking Helps You Get Things Done, 64 comments

Previously: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33478562 (November 5, 2022 — 325 points, 199 comments)

Any difference between this and https://www.focusmate.com ?

Site takes like 10 seconds to load. Did HN give it the kiss of death?

everyone needs a friend

See also https://adhdactually.com/membership Basically moderated by a small team zoom sessions to body double.

That's one hell of a term to mean being afraid of being alone.

I haven't read the article yet, but is it about body weight doubling?

If you need to practice body doubling it’s suggested you don’t go into a career doing knowledge work because you will likely have to spend a lot more time working alone.

It's suggested by who? The alternatives may be worse, or not available in some way to a person.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com