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Comment by corry | Hacker News Reader

I'm 100% onboard with the 'Lawrence of Arabia inspired Dune' theory but I think one of the cleverest things Herbert did with Dune is to introduce a 'visionary substance' (spice) into the otherwise austere Islamic-adjacent motif.

He not only shrouded the spice in ritual and religion (which isn't THAT suprising considering many human societies used visionary substsances, and Herbert was a child of the 1960s psychedelic culture too) but also give it a central place in the economy and functioning of the empire.

What if a visionary substance was the real deal that gave you insight and precognition? What a rebel leader took full advantage of such a substance? What if that was combined with religious fervour?

Dune is basically space war + outsider Messiah + Islam + psychedelics

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Plus he also had the smarts to use plausible mechanisms to remove advanced computers (the Butlerian Jihad) and nuclear weapons (some sort of extreme taboo based on a historical event IIRC? it's been a while..) from the technologies available to the Dune universe. This allowed the exploration of all sorts of human developmental possibilities - the Bene Gesserit and mentats, advanced schools of martial art and mental discipline etc.

On the topic of the Butlerian Jihad, and its echo of the historic Islamic taboo on art representing living things - looking around the current world and bearing in mind how twisted out of shape our social conversation has arguably become so quickly given that iPhones only landed in 2007... you have to wonder whether it is such an outlandish idea. Looking at the news over the last few weeks and months makes me realise that it is incredibly hard to see outside your historical moment, until things just happen! There are many possibilities and reality can get weird...

The personal force-field shield was clever too. Removes bullets from the story, in favor of martial arts.

Force-field was innovative.

Every other fantasy-type movie in a modern setting I cannot take seriously...Avengers, Harry Potter, Star Wars, etc.

Like, just use a gun. Whatever you were going to attack with, put that in a gun, and attack at 45rpm, 3000 ft/s.

> Every other fantasy-type movie in a modern setting I cannot take seriously...Avengers, Harry Potter, Star Wars, etc.

> Like, just use a gun. Whatever you were going to attack with, put that in a gun, and attack at 45rpm, 3000 ft/s.

This is one of the many reasons why I like the Dresden Files universe. Wizards wield incredible power, but a wizard can still be brought down by a sniper.

> Force-field was innovative.

Yes, although the shields were fudged somewhat to allow knife fights. It would also seem that mankind lost the ancient secrets of body armour.

> Like, just use a gun. Whatever you were going to attack with, put that in a gun, and attack at 45rpm, 3000 ft/s.

There was even one Dr Who episode where the Daleks replaced their beam weapons with machine guns [0]. Although only because there was some sort of 'unknown force' that disrupted the guns without affecting the other Dalek systems.

[0] https://tardis.fandom.com/wiki/Death_to_the_Daleks_(TV_story...

The fields didn't fully allow knife fights. High speed impacts the shield would repel but slow but strong movements with a knife could penetrate it. The way the movie at least justified disabling the shields was that the Fremen were seen to use laser weapons which in the Dune universe would cause a mini nuclear explosion if they hit a shield.

> although the shields were fudged somewhat to allow knife fights

Right. Shields can protect against high velocity things, e.g. bullets or shrapnel. But not slow moving things, e.g. air and hands.

This contrivance means ancient weapons still have a purpose.

This effect is similar to non-Newtonian fluids. (In fact, there has been research into using non-Newtonian fluids for body armor [1].)

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> It would also seem that mankind lost the ancient secrets of body armour.

There are a few instances of armor in the movies (Harkonnens, Leo Atreides and Gurney Halleck, one of Paul Atreides' visions), but the books make virtually no mention of it.

The in-universe explanation is that the fighting style was much closer to ninjas than knights. Which means light-to-no armor was preferred.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_armor

Bret Devereaux has an interesting writeup on "The Problem with Sci Fi Body Armor" and discusses the Dune movie in detail.

https://acoup.blog/2024/11/29/collections-the-problem-with-s...

Nuclear weapons exist and are used, they call them atomics. I believe they are used to break into the city in the first book. The big taboo seems to be using them against people.

It's less a taboo and more about MAD. The superpowers can't use them against each other, because then they'll get attacked by other superpowers sort of thing.

Correct. They nuke the rock wall to let the worms through.

> and nuclear weapons (some sort of extreme taboo based on a historical event IIRC? it's been a while..)

If I recall correctly, they are banned from use on people because that's how the machines tried to annihilate mankind (it's been a while..)

> nuclear weapons (some sort of extreme taboo based on a historical event IIRC? it's been a while..)

They have them ("atomics"). If bored into the planet, they are powerful enough to split it.

The Great Convention (akin the Geneva convention) prohibited the use of atomics. A convention that...well, no spoilers.

> nuclear weapons (some sort of extreme taboo based on a historical event IIRC? it's been a while..)

They have them.

But there's a moral taboo and a practical MAD one.

are you telling us AI slop is not Haram?

> and Herbert was a child of the 1960s psychedelic culture

Was he really a child of this culture? He was in his 40s by the time Dune came out in 1965, with large parts of it written in the early 60s, when psychadelics seemed more of a fringe thing used in beatnik circles, academic labs and prisons.

OTOH, the concept of invaders seizing territory for spice or other unique natural materials (Dutch and Portuguese in the Moluccas, Japan annexing Taiwan) drugs shifting empires (Opium) and special substances and techniques needed for long-distance navigation (citrus, astrolabe) had been around for centuries.

I hear you, but I believe he publicly commented on psychedelics and visionary substances and their inspiration for Dune's spice. He studied the natives of North and South America which have many examples of these things.

I don't have a source handy, but can share what Paul Stamets recounted a personal conversation with Frank in his Mycelium Running book as reported on the Dune wikipedia page:

"Frank went on to tell me that much of the premise of Dune—the magic spice (spores) that allowed the bending of space (tripping), the giant sand worms (maggots digesting mushrooms), the eyes of the Freman (the cerulean blue of Psilocybe mushrooms), the mysticism of the female spiritual warriors, the Bene Gesserits (influenced by the tales of Maria Sabina and the sacred mushroom cults of Mexico)—came from his perception of the fungal life cycle, and his imagination was stimulated through his experiences with the use of magic mushrooms."

Totally agree with you on the invaders part. I think this is why Dune is so great, it blends A LOT of things together into a coherent narrative.

Plus oil geopolitics

Yeah, that's smart too. And how the "Spacefaring Guild" requires spice to navigate the best routes between the stars. Oil for transport. Everyone brought to their needs by Pauls' threat to switch off the oil supply. It's all so smart, Herbert was a hypergenius I think.

> Herbert was a hypergenius I think.

DUNE is (one of?) my favorite fiction reads and I have to resist turning all "fanboy" over it sometimes.

I love the sensation in DUNE that I'm inside a fully fleshed-out universe where the vision is so large I can't even see the edges, but here's one thread you might find interesting.

...that said...

I never really "got" the rest of the series. Never felt like Paul and his actions were acceptably justified beyond "yeah we would've all died out, trust me".

Separately, the whole, uh, female superpower thing came off as eye-rolling simp-nerd fantasy that wasn't up to the standard of the first book. It wasn't even spice-induced, it was just /muscles/ taking over mens' minds.

> Never felt like Paul and his actions were acceptably justified

I actually like what Hurbert did with paul. He made someone that was a god amongst man and then completely destroyed his legacy. Paul both was and wasn't a hero depending on the perspective of the person in the story. Herbert did a good job of showing the dangers of worshiping an authoritarian leader.

> DUNE is (one of?) my favorite non-fiction reads

> non-fiction

I have some bad news for you...

hahah are implying DUNE isn't historical non-fiction?!! ;) Thank you; fixed.

Children of Dune is my favorite thus far (just finished God Emperor… and don’t intend to continue the series).

With that being said, Frank Herbert certainly (IMO) is a genius of pure vision and worldbuilding but he is a serviceable writer at best.

By the aforementioned fourth book, he no longer has anything to add to his consideration of prescience/fate and is increasingly focused on sexuality. And his writing on sexuality is about as un-sensual as I can imagine.

I've found that "escaping from one's editor and writing things you think are cool or sexy" is a common hazard of being a successful author, especially in SFF. Look at George R.R. Martin's complete inability to actually finish a damn book, or Robert Jordan's insistence on incorporating detailed descriptions of people's clothes alongside gobs of spanking and ceremonial nudity. And those are series I enjoyed despite their flaws.

It's been a while since I've read them, but I recall Heretics and Chapterhouse being better than God Emperor. Although also weirder.

The sex stuff is a bit weird and cringe, but they're still great books. I just re-read Heretics again as I'm making my way through the whole series again and frankly in many ways it's the best book of the series if you can get past the weird sex stuff.

There's plenty in there still about prescience.

Paul Atreides actions really are never acceptabl\y justified because the later books basically show them to be unjustified. Or at least contradictory. It's a bit confused, but he is shown to be a brutal genocidal dictator, and his son even more so... Paul even alludes to Hitler at one point... It's just that Herbert makes them the protagonist and makes it confusing for the reader how sympathetic they should be.

And we basically just have to take Leto II's word at face value that he was preventing humanity's extinction, but...

By the time of Heretics, Herbert was basically coming right out and saying that prescience in fact alters the timeline rather than "just" predicts it. Which is kind of crazy if you think of two things:

1) Every Guild Navigator using the spice induced prescience to plan and fold space is altering reality

2) Spice comes from an alien being. The only aliens in the Dune universe.

(disclaimer: I don't count Brian Herbert's books & and whatever might be in there... what I read of those made me not want to read more)

Yeah I like the first book the most. The series went off the rails.

> needs

knees

Ha yes! My phonetic spelling

Don't forget ecology

It bothers me that this doesn't actually sound that far from what a lot of folks seem to genuinely think? People are desperate for a panacea. But only if it works on the elites, it seems. Heaven forbid we come up with something that merely helps people lose weight.

Worse, a lot of people mistake euphoria moments for being right.

It’s compelling because of course that is what people want.

"we have prophets at home" : the prophets at home : ketamine and dmt fueled madness

My memory of the book is faded and relying on the recent movie. Why is the rebellion in your opinion Islam like. Dethroned prince, lost prince, rebellion against colonization, empire mining a colony are very much a common trope

https://www.thecommoner.org.uk/dune-part-two-a-film-of-anti-...

The rebellion is literally called 'jihad' in the book. A very religious desert people engaged in jihad.

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