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> deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed
Unfortunately, unlike 1776, today's king was given power by the governed, and the majority (of those who care enough to vote) still support him. So I don't know where those of us who are horrified go from here.
Four years feels like a long time when it has just started; it isn’t so long at all in hindsight. Moreover, you have two years before the next opportunity you have to disempower Trump (midterm elections). The campaigns for those start in a year or so, so if you’re going to cripple Trump by taking back Congress now is the time to be introspective.
The electorate is not irreconcilable, but change doesn’t happen when you double down on the same course.
> try to figure out why your message and candidate failed
I don't like Harris' message. I probably disagree with her on a majority of political debate topics. I am a centrist and would agree with her on some things, but I would have considered myself a right leaning centrist more than a left leaning centrist. Her message failed for me too. I am just dismayed that the country elected _this_ man. A convicted felon who has provably lied more than any other person on record in the history of humanity, who already tried to overthrow an election, is only self interested, a bully, a sexual assaulter, a conman, a swindler: _this_ man? And now he's doing what you knew he would do, and there doesn't seem to be any way to stop it.
I don't want to know how to get Kamala 2.0 to win an election. I want to know how to get back to Bush v. Gore.
Yep, 100%. My biases are showing :)
> I am more concerned about the potential for the complete capitulation of American democracy to totalitarianism than any particular platform issues. What's happening right now is only a small part standard disagreements between parties (the GOP banning trans athletes, rebalancing the budget, approaching foreign relations differently) and much more about half the country being entranced by a cult of personality while the leaders in a position to stop a president from becoming a king instead are bowing down to him.
Yes, I’m concerned about the risks I’m seeing too. Where I’m really struggling is in trying to connect that emotion to facts. So far, every headline, article, and statement I’ve seen has turned out to be somewhere between “misleading” and “outright malicious falsehood” upon closer inspection.
Still, I read and give each one a fair chance to change my mind. The accusations being made are so extreme it would be wrong for me not to.
What really concerns me is that this extreme partisan rhetoric would make it much easier for Trump or someone near him to actually take control. When people have seen months and months of these sorts of assertions being made, only to investigate them and discover that isn’t what was happening at all… at some point, people are going to stop listening. That’s when things get really dangerous IMO.
My biggest fear with this administration is that they’ll actually do the things they’re being accused of, I’ll see it for what it is, and I won’t be able to get anyone to listen to me because of “outrage fatigue”.
ETA: a second response is coming for the last section :)
I disagree that there is an excess of hyperbole going on.
I truly believe that Trump/Musk/Vance and the unitary-executive/techbro-cult, if they are not soon stopped in their tracks, will have subverted American political and economic power for generations.
Europe and Canada and the world can no longer trust the United States as a long-term partner. This isn't about subtle pivots and diplomacy. This is betrayal of values on our closest political, military and economic allies.
He is actively destroying the apolitical civil service and trying to gut the pipeline of young, skilled workers into federal government. The only motive for the actions they are taking are to destroy our government. I would not be shocked to hear reports in the coming months of military officers being asked who they voted for in 2024.
He is claiming (and trying to exert!) levels of executive power that generations of Americans were taught by Nixon were forbidden.
“He who saves his Country does not violate any Law.”
"If the will of the president is not implemented and the president is representative of the people, that means the will of the people is not being implemented and that means we don't live in a democracy, we live in a bureaucracy.”
These quotes should frighten every American.
I live in Canada and let me tell you we're not covering ourselves in glory when it comes to democracy either. Between laws like bill C-63[1], which would effectively criminalize "bad" online speech and the prime minister suspending parliament[2] for political expediency we're not looking too good.
[1] https://www.michaelgeist.ca/2024/06/viranis-failed-human-rig...
[2] https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/court-challenge-prorogue-pa...
> I truly believe that Trump/Musk/Vance and the unitary-executive/techbro-cult, if they are not soon stopped in their tracks, will have subverted American political and economic power for generations.
I actually agree with this statement. The difference is that I'm not convinced that's a bad thing. From my perspective those power structures have been in the control of the left[†] for my entire life; they've had near-complete control since at least FDR, and substantial influence back to ~1900.
[†]: "the left" isn't a great descriptor here, but I don't really have an objective way to name the group I'm referencing. I think you know what I mean, if not feel free to ask and I'll expound on it.
--
Note: I wrote this section by doing my best to empathize with Trump and put myself mentally in his position. I'm assigning my own perceptions of his motivations and perceptions. Please don't take statements made here as my attesting to them being fact. When I make an assertion here, it's because I believe Trump himself would make it, not because I necessarily agree with it or believe it to be true.
Trump intended to "play ball" and steer the federal government through the normal mechanisms in his first term. He was met with far more substantial resistance than he expected and had little success. Then he lost a hotly contested election for a second term, hurting his ego - and I think we all agree that ego is a powerful motivator for Trump.
... but then the Biden administration took control of those same levers of power that Trump had difficultly moving, and turned them on Trump. He was smeared by the media, continued to be mocked even after serving as President, spied upon, and ultimately was the target of multiple political prosecutions. His wealth and his very freedom were directly threatened. This was an extreme escalation. His options in 2024 were binary: he could win the Presidency or have his life destroyed. He won, and now his actions are being driven almost exclusively by righteous indignation.
He's going scorched earth. He's using every available lever of power and pulling them as hard as he can. He's doing things he knows are going to get shot down in the courts and taking actions he knows are "gray" at best, and he's doing as many things at once as possible in an attempt to saturate both the other branches of government and the attention of the electorate.
His goal isn't to leave a legacy in the traditional sense, or to implement a typical policy agenda - he's trying to dismantle century-old entrenched systems of power that have cloaked themselves in the mantle of democracy in an attempt to take control of the same.
--
All of that said, I believe the American people elected him for the same reason I voted for him: because the status quo is unjustifiable, and no other path toward reform is apparent.
I want Trump to destroy the majority of government power and authority. My reasons for that are different than Trump's, and different from most Republicans I've met. Trump voters by and large are framing this as a fight against the "deep state", while I want to see a continuous, gradual reduction in government through redundancy. I'm an anarchist, but not "that kind" of anarchist - I don't want to murder the government, I want it to die of neglect because it's no longer necessary.
The methods he's using scare me. He's pushing the boundaries of Presidential power without question, and almost certainly exceeding them already in some ways. I fully expect that he will continue to do so in larger and more impactful ways.
Even if I'm 100% correct in inferring Trump's intentions, it's still a very dangerous approach. Those power structures are so entrenched because they have inordinate (and inappropriate) influence on the process in place to change them. They'll fight for their continued existence. However you want to phrase it, Trump is subverting, suspending, relaxing, ignoring, or destroying the protections built into our system of government.
The bet that we are making as a country right now is that Trump intends to use as little of that seized power as possible, that his intentions are what we believe them to be, that he has the honor necessary to release those levers of power, and that those he allies himself with along the way either don't attempt to or are unable to take over the movement.
Trump's actions are making us vulnerable to the destruction of the American system of government - but things have gotten to the point where a majority of voters feel that risk is justified when considering where we are today and where we're heading otherwise.
> Europe and Canada and the world can no longer trust the United States as a long-term partner. This isn't about subtle pivots and diplomacy. This is betrayal of values on our closest political, military and economic allies.
I think Trump believes this is larger than domestic corruption - that the US is so powerful economically, militarily, and culturally that the cancer in our government has spread to other Western governments.
As for the US as a long-term partner, that ship sailed long ago. Our system is structured so that the party with the power to set our foreign relations agenda changes every four years. A promise made by the US is only guaranteed for the current Presidential term. It may be honored by the next, or it may not.
> He is actively destroying the apolitical civil service and trying to gut the pipeline of young, skilled workers into federal government. The only motive for the actions they are taking are to destroy our government.
Agreed. That is his explicit stated intent. I believe him, and it looks like most voters agree with him, too.
Let's all just hope we're correct in inferring his motivations for doing so.
> I would not be shocked to hear reports in the coming months of military officers being asked who they voted for in 2024.
I'd be shocked if there aren't reports. I'd be more shocked if those reports turned out to be both true and directed by the administration rather than overzealous individuals or not explicitly intended to generate those headlines in an attempt to sway opinion - but as I've said elsewhere, the accusation is of a magnitude that I'll investigate them with an open mind.
> He is claiming (and trying to exert!) levels of executive power that generations of Americans were taught by Nixon were forbidden.
Yep.
> “He who saves his Country does not violate any Law.”
> "If the will of the president is not implemented and the president is representative of the people, that means the will of the people is not being implemented and that means we don't live in a democracy, we live in a bureaucracy.”
> These quotes should frighten every American.
I agree - but I think the disconnect is in whether we believe the risk is justified.
Our Founders did things that were illegal. They even did things that were objectively vile - they deprived loyalists of their property. In some cases they tortured or even killed them. They didn't do so without justification, or without trying every other option available to them. They weren't enthusiastic for those things; they saw them as a duty. Their actions led to the overthrow of a tyrannical monarch, the creation of a truly revolutionary system of government, two centuries of relative prosperity, and ultimately the creation and maintenance of the longest period of relative peace the modern world has ever seen.
Some other quotes that would be just as frightening as the above in a contemporary lens:
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgement of freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments by those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." ~ James Madison
"If this be treason, make the most of it!" ~ Patrick Henry
"But a Constitution of Government once changed from Freedom, can never be restored. Liberty, once lost, is lost forever." ~ John Adams
"If ever this vast country is brought under a single government, it will be one of the most extensive corruption, indifferent and incapable of a wholesome care over so wide a spread of surface. This will not be borne, and you will have to choose between reform and revolution. If I know the spirit of this country, the one or the other is inevitable." ~ Thomas Jefferson
"The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions that I wish it to be always kept alive." ~ Thomas Jefferson
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~ Thomas Jefferson
Jefferson in particular is a treasure trove of quotes that illustrate this idea. Let's just hope that Trump is a better man than many believe he is. Personally, I think it will be a near thing, and am hoping he clears that bar - because if I'm wrong, we're in for a rough ride indeed.
The Founders fought and bled and sacrificed together for the free principles that this country was founded on. Trump has done none of these things. In fact, he goes out of his way to show contempt for large swathes of the citizenry on a regular basis. The man is famous for refusing to pay his bills. Why would one expect this nakedly self-interested man to show a shred of honor at the eleventh hour when he has the chance to become a powerful tyrant for the remainder of his life?
In my limited view Obama was very centrist, as was Hillary, and with some notable exceptions it looked like Kamala would continue the trend (while expediently skewing left and sometimes even slightly right when necessary).
I think if you were to pie chart policy even into Trumps first term you’d see presidential action being both majority in volume and majority in impact as centrist.
So while I agree that Kamala’s messaging failed to point this out during the election, and DEI rhetoric and action being a notable exception to my argument, Kamala was at the end of the day the centrist candidate IMO and thus the 2.0 correction would be more transparency to that reality.
I’m an extremist without question, just not the popular type. Think less “Donald Trump” and more “Ron Paul” :)
> I am just dismayed that the country elected _this_ man. A convicted felon who has provably lied more than any other person on record in the history of humanity, who already tried to overthrow an election, is only self interested, a bully, a sexual assaulter, a conman, a swindler: _this_ man?
The alternative was someone with no obvious positions other than her predecessor’s, who was not elected by her party, and who was honestly just unlikeable as an individual for most people.
Of all the things you listed about Trump, I’d only really take issue with two: I’m not convinced he sexually assaulted anyone (though I also don’t have sufficient evidence to believe he definitely didn’t), and I don’t think “only self interested” is quite right. I think his motivations are a bit more complex than that, and are more rooted in personal pride and revenge than anything else. I don’t think he intended to win the first time, and I don’t think personal financial enrichment was really a goal of his either time.
I think his initial run was mostly on a whim, but (Hillary) Clinton offended him and he doubled down in response. His second run was personal - he felt personally attacked on both socially and legally, and has basically made it his mission in life at this point to destroy everything those who did that to him care about.
I don’t believe for a moment that he’s being selfless or altruistic. He’s acting out of self-interest, but not in the way most people would mean that statement.
> And now he's doing what you knew he would do, and there doesn't seem to be any way to stop it.
As best I can tell, he’s mostly doing what the people who elected him expected him to do.
> I don't want to know how to get Kamala 2.0 to win an election. I want to know how to get back to Bush v. Gore.
I’d be happy with Obama v. McCain at this point.
> Of all the things you listed about Trump, I’d only really take issue with two
So then you agree that he tried to overthrow an election? This is the wild part to me. I don't know whether his actions after losing the 2020 election were technically illegal or not, but in my opinion this was the clearest threat to America's peaceful transition of power I've ever witnessed. I thought "okay, this is at least 50x worse than Watergate, even Trump won't survive this." Then amazingly (to me), he won in 2024. My only hypothesis for how that happened is that 99% of people who voted for him believed his unfounded claims regarding the 2020 election. But you seem to be an interesting counterexample.
> As best I can tell, he’s mostly doing what the people who elected him expected him to do.
The one thing I'd like to pick at tonight is this. I don't think many of the people who voted for him would have agreed with all of this a year ago, but they get stuck agreeing with it now out of confirmation bias and because he's on their team, and they want their team to win. It seems more like everything Trump does is approved by the vast majority of his base, no matter what that ends up being.
Before the election I enjoyed the debate between Ben Shapiro and Sam Harris[1]. Shapiro's main point was that though he didn't like a lot of what Trump said, he liked a lot of what Trump did in his first term. Shapiro was of the opinion that Trump wouldn't do all the things he said and that his second term would look a lot like his first.
It is my opinion that, a month into it, Trump's second term now looks nothing like his first, and Trump is making good on all the things he said he would do during his campaign. Everyone isn't Shapiro, but a lot of people listen to him and think like him. Taking Shapiro as an example, I would say he was clearly wrong. But if you watch Shapiro today, he accepts what Trump is doing full stop. He's not out there saying, "I didn't think Trump would actually do all of this." He's acting like this is what he wanted. And, thanks to Shapiro's confirmation bias and a good healthy dose of audience capture, it is what he wanted - at least the part about Trump being right, now that "right" has changed.
Anyway, I typed way longer than I intended to. Thank you for a good civil discussion.
> I’d be happy with Obama v. McCain at this point.
Fully agreed.
Good night.
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTnV5RfhIjk&t=3s&pp=ygUWYmVu...
Example during the first term was the "Lock her up" talk about Hillary. He didn't do anything about her at all. And people just accepted it as big talk. Hi supporters (mostly) didn't really expected him to go after her with the DOJ or whatever. It was just campaigning bluster. But today he says he's going to start unnecessary trade wars with allies and people said "its just bluster, he's not really going to do it", immediately to "of course he's going that, he said he would".
When he said that people would not need to vote again if he's elected a second time, was that bluster? Taken out of context? Not to be taken seriously? That's what his supporters said then. But what he starts making moves to actually make that happen? Then its "he said he would do that and was voted in, so that's what america wants". It's a wild to say its what people want when they didn't believe he would do it.
It is what people want. Just look at how many people on HN are aggressively carrying water for Trump and DOGE in these threads. They aren't the minority, they're the mainstream. You can't simply pretend the majority of Trump voters who absolutely do want him to do the things he says either don't exist or didn't vote.
A few days ago I was worried they might pull all their troops out of Europe. Today… I think I’m more worried they won’t.
But people have been warning about this all the way back during the alt-right/Tea Party days of Obama, which Trump was a direct response to.
It's been like watching the slowest train crash in progress, all while half the country accuses the other half of derangement for believing trains are even real.
We used to live in a democracy, not a dimocracy. There were more options than the 2 major parties. Always have been.
> I’m not convinced he sexually assaulted anyone
Yeah, and his name totally didn't show up in Maxwell's black book, and he totally wasn't a pal of Jeffrey Epstein. /s
You're fucking kidding me.
> I don’t think personal financial enrichment was really a goal of his either time.
My brother in Christ, financial enrichment has been the only goal of Donald Trump, ever. He ran in 2016 expecting to lose so he could use the base as viewers of the new Fox-alt media platform he was trying to raise money for.
This is a guy whose life mission is to convince everyone else he's a billionaire, while simultaneously threatening to sue anyone who claims he isn't, while also simultaneously avoiding lawsuits that would open his finances up to discovery. He tried to sue his own biographer when said biographer claimed he wasn't a billionaire. Trump dropped the case when it went to discovery.
>I think his initial run was mostly on a whim, but (Hillary) Clinton offended him and he doubled down in response. His second run was personal - he felt personally attacked on both socially and legally, and has basically made it his mission in life at this point to destroy everything those who did that to him care about.
His first run was in 2000. His second run was 2012. Third run got him elected. His fourth run saw him defeated. His fifth run got him re-elected. Get your facts straight.
If a scientist going up against a fraud, and the fraud wins the debate, then it’s not a debate.
This is what happened back when experts went to Fox and talked about climate change in the 90s.
They were simply obliterated. Even if a point was made, it would be killed and something else floated during the evening shows.
Because it’s not a debate. It’s not about truth, or democracy.
Trump dodged every debate after Harris came on the scene. He was not humiliated for this.
One team wants to win. The other team wants a functioning nation.
The electorate is functionally irreconcilable if the message never gets to them, and their party punishes bipartisan behavior.
And this is not what america was set up to survive. It was assumed that people would reach across the aisle.
Even if you win the next election. The ground work for Trump 3.0 and beyond remains.
People need to look at Fox News, and develop ways to get past their censorship and message curation.