Comment by edferda | Hacker News Reader

Comment by edferda | Hacker News Reader

Parent Full thread

I don’t have kids. However, this same concept can be applied, and verified, with dogs.

I have made it a rule to never deceive my dog, and she trusts me because it. If I pick up her water bowl to refill and clean it while she is in the middle of drinking, I make it a point to always give it back with fresh water. I have several water bowls around the house , and the one in my room only gets refilled when I see she is actively drinking from it.

She sees this removal of something she wants (and needs) as a good thing, because I have never deceived her. I always give it back.

If I say we are going for a walk or I grab the leash, we go for a walk. I try to not do things that she would interpret as something not intended. For example, grabbing the leash and not taking her out.

With dogs you become really mindful of your actions. They learn so many of your subtle non-verbal cues, that you start to notice how much your body speaks.

I often think about this, and it has been a valuable learning experience. If I ever decide to have kids, I will make sure that what I communicate (either verbally or non-verbally) is congruent with my actions. I believe that this, is the surest way to build trust.

"With dogs you become really mindful of your actions."

Dogs hold you accountable in the most beautiful way. The best boss.

Everything is a trust relationship. I recall finding myself offended when I had difficulty pitching ideas at my workplace. A lot of times it felt like "hey, why don't you trust me or my idea". I only had maybe one or two of those moments, but I have also witnessed other people going through a trust battle just like the one I described at work.

This can happen in a family, in a romantic relationship, work, or in society. When the arena becomes entirely about trust, people act out. That's why kids rebel, that's why marriages fall apart, and that's why people leave companies.

So if your dog required medication, you would never hide the pill in peanut butter for example?

It's not a deception, in the same way that a chicken nugget is not chicken hidden inside of breading.

It simply is pill with peanut butter

I think you would feel deceived if given a peanut butter sandwich, and after eating it someone revealed they had mixed powder from a pill into it.

Reread your sentence and look how much stuff you made up about 1) a scenario that’s completely fictional and 2) how I, a person you never met would react to it

I said I thought you would feel a certain way in that situation. Do you disagree?

Yes absolutely and completely.

Here’s what would actually happen if this fictional scenario did occur:

If someone hands me something to consume, no matter how much I trust them, I would ask “cool thanks, what’s in the sandwich?”

Now you, a non-deceiver, would say “peanut butter and pharmaceuticals”. And I would say “oh, I’m not sure I want that, but thanks for being honest”

I hope you see how this analogy does not map to dogs.

You have avoided answering by changing the scenario. Deception was implied. I'll take that as my assumption being correct and you were simply too proud to admit it.

My dog trainer explained this to me like this: trust is like a bank, you build up and store a lot of trust, and sometimes you spend some trust, but if there's a lot banked up it will be fine.

The first day I got my dog, he had parasites in his ears and stomach. We had to force down gross medicines into his ears and his mouth, and he hated it and us for it.

Three years later we have built up so much trust that I clean his ears every bath and he stands still and waits for me to do it. He still hates it, but he trusts me and knows that I'm not trying to hurt him.

I think this case is excused by the fact that you have no way of explaining why the medicine is important.

Exactly my point. Deception may be necessary at times.

Would it make you feel better if you told your dog there was a pill in the peanut butter? I don't think that would stop them from eating it.

No, because I don't feel the deception is bad in this case. It is a good deception.

If I showed my dog the pill, and then showed my dog the peanut butter, and then showed my dog the act of me putting peanut butter on the pill before giving him this package, where does the deception lie in this sequence of events?

If the dog was familiar with pills and already had an aversion to them, which is typically the case when people resort to using peanut butter, it is possible the dog would be suspicious and just try to lick the peanut butter and avoid the pill itself. Or just avoid it altogether. Typically you would not show your dog the pill going in the peanut butter.

It would not be a deception in the scenario you presented, but it also might not be effective in getting the dog to swallow the pill.

A dog isn't a kid obviously, the dog you leave him outside of the home once you're done and it requires maybe 30 minutes of attention a day. a kid, it's constant attention.

> I will make sure that what I communicate (either verbally or non-verbally) is congruent with my actions. I believe that this, is the surest way to build trust.

Everyone think that way during the beginning, until having an hour of free time during a week becomes a dream, you don't sleep at night anymore, things get exhausting to do.

Then you get the belt out and teach the kids how to behave. i have been taught that way, most kids until 20 years ago were taught that way.

Physical pain is part of life, the very first event of a kid's life is his mother tearing herself painfully to get him out of her belly.

Sure, physical pain is absolutely part of life and unavoidable. Yet, it is not an effective tool for either parenting or raising dogs. This has been consistently shown, both for raising children as well as dogs, in research over past few decades. All you do is condition fear and creating emotional trauma that will leave them less able to cope and process emotional pain later in life without resorting to “getting out the belt” for their kids.

Patenting is brutally hard, exhausting, and often unrewarding work. But if you’re burnt out and find yourself reaching for the belt because your hour of free time is being disrupted by some undesirable behavior then just step out of the house for a few minutes. Young kids (and puppies) crave attention and removing the attention is more effective than giving attention by conditioning a fear response.

> Then you get the belt out and teach the kids how to behave.

This in fact teaches kids to not behave. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3447048/

> A dog isn't a kid obviously, the dog you leave him outside of the home once you're done and it requires maybe 30 minutes of attention a day. a kid, it's constant attention.

You can have a relationship with a dog like this, but you don't need to. You can have a relationship where lots of attention and love is shared. It's very meaningful and powerful.

I have found that it’s way more effective to reward good behavior than to punish bad behavior.

Rewarding good behavior takes more effort than punishment though. It requires more patience because you don’t immediately see the results of your actions. Over time, they add up.

And I totally understand this. I have gotten angry at my dog , and I have shouted at her. However, after some reflection, the situation is always caused by some fault of my own. After all, I am the highly intelligent being, and I should know better. But it’s easier to shout than to critically examine your own behavior.

But hey, we can totally disagree on this. I think that hitting beings (either animals or humans) is not correct. Clearly, you think otherwise. You’re entitled to your opinion. Even if I think it is not morally correct.

I would encourage you to think about whether that’s a belief you acquired by your own means or just something you believe because you were hit yourself.

Have you consistently tried to discipline with positive reinforcement? Have you found it to be ineffective? Have you consulted with professionals? Maybe you have. Maybe not.

Sometimes we do things just because that’s how we grew up and not really because we believe in them. That’s how we end up in these never ending violence cycles. But it only takes one brave, and introspective, person to stop :)

Reply on news.ycombinator.com