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Comment by mytailorisrich | Hacker News Reader

It's pretty clear that he did not do any sort of "fascist salute" but he is learning that in politics reality does not matter, only perception does and how often something is repeated so politicians are usually very careful...

Edit: "look exactly like" (reply below) is a QED to my point, really.

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> It's pretty clear that he did not do any sort of "fascist salute"

O RLY

I guess this is basically our era's version of "point to a deer, call it a horse" (指鹿爲馬) [1]:

> Zhao Gao was contemplating treason but was afraid the other officials would not heed his commands, so he decided to test them first. He brought a deer and presented it to the Second Emperor but called it a horse. The Second Emperor laughed and said, "Is the chancellor perhaps mistaken, calling a deer a horse?" Then the emperor questioned those around him. Some remained silent, while some, hoping to ingratiate themselves with Zhao Gao, said it was a horse, and others said it was a deer. Zhao Gao secretly arranged for all those who said it was a deer to be brought before the law and had them executed instantly. Thereafter the officials were all terrified of Zhao Gao. Zhao Gao gained military power as a result of that.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhao_Gao

Not sure if replies purposely ignore the point, thereby proving it, or if I am expressing it badly (Edit: OK, so it is indeed the former...)

If we want to use fancy proverbs to show our deep wisdom, I think the following French proverb is more apt to the situation: "If you want to kill your dog, accuse him of having rabies."

If your dog is foaming at the mouth and acting erratically and aggressively then he does have rabies.

It's always best to see things as they are.

Or the American saying, if it walks like a duck quacks like a duck and does a nazi salute, then it's definitely a nazi duck.

"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command."

Hadn't realised this one had such a direct antecedent.

> It's pretty clear that he did not do any sort of "fascist salute"

It couldn't be more clear to me that's exactly what he did. More than once. I saw it with my own eyes.

Nah, people just don't feel like giving irrational levels of benefit of the doubt again and again and again and again.

How is that clear? The videos that I have seen look exactly like a deliberate nazi salute and I have heard that far right groups (of which I have no contact) interpreted it as such and celebrated it.

In 40 years I have never, outside of documentations about the second world war and fictional movies in that area, seen this salute. It is 100% a Nazi salute, that starts by hitting the heart and then stretching the arm. Nothing else comes even close to this that could explain such a behavior. If you don't see it you are either very ignorant or plain ... .

Also meeting the AFD that is under investigation because of it's Nazi ideologies makes it clear that he has a very good understanding of what that salute means.

Election results across Europe and America have shown that accusing people of being "far right" or "Nazi", and to call them ignorant or stupid because they want other policies does not work and only increases polarisation.

It is much more productive and useful to try to understand people's concerns but it is also not as easy.

There being support for fascists does not mean fascists are not fascists. In US in particular, Republicans and conservatives were systematically given too much benefit of doubt.

Its very well known that if somebody says something extreme, such as radical views, they tend to assume other people who dont oppose them, agree with them. The only possibility is to take your stance and give contra.

Also it‘s a difference to be against immigration versus the open salutation and worshipping of a mass murderer millions of europeans and americans have died for to stop.

For me it’s disgusting that this tabu is now broken and everybody still tries to loudly ignore it!

> accusing people of being "far right" or "Nazi", and to call them ignorant or stupid because they want other policies does not work and only increases polarisation.

This is true but this is not what's happened here. The discussion is about whether Musk's gesture is a Nazi salute. OP called ignorant people who do not see it as such. They said nothing about those people's opinions and did not accuse them of being far right or Nazis themselves. In fact OP didn't even call Musk a nazi in their post. To conclude that it was their hidden intention to do so is a leap in logic that is not obvious.

Calling someone ignorant for not interpreting what Musk did in the most extremely politically orientated way is a cheap ad hominem attack but unsurprising in the current climate, as I pointed out. Bye.

Calling someone ignorant is indeed an ad-hominem, as is calling them Nazi or fascist (or, on the other side of the political spectrum, calling them woke or commie) unless they provably profess those opinions.

Given how tense the current political climate is, it's all the more important to avoid resorting in using fallacies. Name calling is one such trap, and misrepresenting one's opponent's arguments is another one.

A political guy made a gesture during public political event. The gesture looked like a well known political gesture. Is it really unfair to interpret that gesture in a political way?

The whole "it is wrong to observe peoples politics and behavior and call them what they are" thing was already absurd, this is really stretching it.

What "concern" did Musk express with that salute?

https://www.thecanadianpressnews.ca/national/auschwitz-survi...

Here's a post [1] where someone has put video of whatever Musk's gesture was side by side with video from a Nazi rally and some later neo Nazi events.

What difference do you see between them?

[1] https://x.com/BartoSitek/status/1882081868423860315?t=8F0hL-...

Musk has been lying about full self driving for 10 years. He had already discovered that reality doesn't matter.

He lies constantly: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42902603

They were and remain two full on fascist salutes. There's no minimizing it or explaining it away: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smQNNo2a9xc

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