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Comment by whatsupdog | Hacker News Reader

I have a significant amount of crypto and use a ledger wallet. Recently I noticed that the ledger app on my phone requires precise location access to function. It just hit me that ledger has precise locations and wallet balances of all its customers.

It's just a matter of time when this information falls in the hands of organized crime. I have since then moved to another wallet and am thinking of selling my house and moving. I have taken steps to ensure that none of the apps that have my crypto balance do not access my location (graphene os with location disabled and always on VPN etc.)

This news bothers me. Maybe the criminals asked for data access as well?

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I believe Ledger already leaked customers' addresses.

https://www.bitdefender.com/en-au/blog/hotforsecurity/hacker...

Probably the most dangerous and costly data leak ever. Can't believe Ledger was able to stay in business after that.

Ledger’s e-commerce and marketing database got popped around June 2020, and the hackers walked away with a bunch of customer emails and some subset of physical addresses/phone numbers. Ledger acknowledged the breach in July, but the data ended up getting shared and reposted multiple times afterward—most famously in December 2020, sparking a wave of phishing attacks.

I know the details cause I work in the field. It's quite crazy that they are still in business.

I don't live at the house where I ordered my wallet anymore. So that's a relief.

Have you warned the people who DO live there?

We literally had to move, out of fear, and I am going to ridiculous measures right now because I work in the field.

Luckily, we were renting.

Is it worth the impact to your lifestyle to work in crypto?

Sounds like it if they have enough assets to worry about organized kidnapping, and the inconvenience is moving apartments.

I literally got very thinly veiled threats from my competition to stop developing my product further, or else...

Because, apparently, my product was "f*cking it up for other businesses."

My usernames like here are random words.

Well, it's not just crypto. Most of my work is in general finance, which puts my family at high risk.

If you know what you're doing, it's worth it. I plan to sell my company within 12-18 months and retire. And, yes, I'm certain that I will do it.

I can't imagine being a celebrity. Fame must be a nightmare.

The article is dated 2020 for those who are curious.

There are multiples alternatives to Ledger, they are the laughing stock of hardware crypto wallets since they've started their online seed backup solution... at least among power users.

Coldcard if you aren't into shitcoins, and Keepkey if you partake in them would be my choices. I would have recommended Trezor at some point but their customer data leak tainted their image for me, they've made a lot of their customers targets just because they chose to use a third party to handle customer data for marketing purpose, if you run a business this sensitive, do this in-house and apply banking standards for this data handling, seems like a no-brainer.

>they are the laughing stock of hardware crypto wallets

Well that's not even close to true. Only the hardcore Bitcoin maximalists were pushing that lie because ledger was supporting Bitcoin cash. What a weird pathetic lie to keep telling all these years later.

This isn't true at all. Ledger has not been a laughingstock of the cryptocurrency community. Their hardware wallet has survived multiple attacks that Trezor has not. It has the strongest security model and easiest to use interface of any cryptocurrency wallet intended for regular use.

This sounds a lot like a sales pitch by Ledger, is the next service you are going to sell me involving me sending my seed, online, to Ledger so it can be sent to 3 third parties... because that is what made so many people laugh at them last year. They can add as many layers of cryptographic schemes on this, it so antithetical to what you should do with a seed you want to secure that it ruined their reputation for a lot of people. If you have missed this episode or prefer to forget about it, it doesn't make it less real.

I'll add that even if that didn't make them a joke to you, I am just as concerned by their customer data leak (similar to what I've mentioned above for Trezor) and that alone makes me not want to recommend them, I just didn't mention it as the other point is egregious enough on its own.

I'm not familiar with the seed uploading incident. I'm just evaluating the device on how easy it is to compromise vs Trezor and competitors.

Do you HAVE TO send your seed for backup? Do they use dark patterns to force you to upload your seed?

Do you realize some people value (probably wrongly in this case) convenience over absolute security?

There’s nothing wrong with offering additional options.

>value (probably wrongly in this case) convenience over absolute security?

I'm guessing there has been far more crypto lost through people forgetting/losing their keys than by having been hacked. Though personally I prefer to lose it speculating on the futures markets. People are idiots a lot of the time.

It's simple, the surface of attack of their system is much larger with the mere existence of this backup scheme, even if none of their customer used it...for the convenience of a fringe of their customers (the real reason is to widen their userbase to less security conscious customers and make more money this way). They also have proven to be poor deciders in the past when it comes to protecting their customers' data. The two combined make me want to never purchase a device again from them, and made me demand that they delete all my PII from a former purchase.

If these red flags are not red enough for you, go on, use them, I refuse to recommend them anymore for the stated reasons, especially when there are alternatives with better security/track records.

You are correct of course! Ledger has long been a pillar of the community but villainized by the Bitcoin core maximalists when ledger started supporting Bitcoin Cash (BCH), the original bitcoin.

Like so much in this space people think with their wallet and will villainize anyone who doesn't help sell their bags.

I stopped using Trezor when they started labeling Bitcoin Cash as Bcash.

I can only second that. I don't have a need for their crypto products personally, but everything I've seen from them (both their open source software and their security research) seems to be a level above the competition.

> do this in-house and apply banking standards for this data handling, seems like a no-brainer.

The no-brainer is thinking that cryptobros are going to do the opposite of whatever banking standards are. Following existing standards in not what disrupters do. It's not what someone flaunting all of the traditional rules of "fiat currency" do. Expecting a scorpion to not sting you is on you.

> the ledger app on my phone requires precise location access to functio

Are you sure that's not just for Bluetooth access (which shows the same message, since it can indeed be used to derive somebody's location)? What business reason do they have to send users' location to their servers?

> graphene os with location disabled and always on VPN etc.

If you don't trust Ledger – how much do you trust your VPN provider? They know both your original IP and what you're doing on the Internet (or at least to which services you're connecting).

>If you don't trust Ledger – how much do you trust your VPN provider? They know both your original IP and what you're doing on the Internet (or at least to which services you're connecting).

Well, the big difference (for what OP is worried about) is that two distinct companies would need to be compromised instead of just the one.

Exactly, and ip address does not give precise location (unless a third company, the ISP, is also compromised).

I've long dreamed about having "anonymous" internet through coaxial/DOCSIS because the modems should work anywhere on the same node (or maybe even beyond) as long as your connection point is physically connected.

I could put down any name and nearby(ish) address I want...

Upstream is shared by less subscribers than downstream. Usually in the same neighborhood. So, it is easy to spot a wider place and then put boots on the ground to do the rest.

Any of widely used VPNs is much more generalized. Chain two or more in case of real concern.

As long as you never connect a phone to that modem (which will leak its GPS location to Google), or order anything from Amazon for delivery to the physical address.

IP address is often resolvable to a precise location, given access to databases maintained by surveillance capitalism entities. I think parent said the second party that would have to be compromised is a VPN provider, assuming that's being used to hide the relatively insecure ISP assigned IP address.

You need location access to scan for Bluetooth devices in app. Pretty sure you don’t need it to use already paired devices.

It’s because companies were using Bluetooth scanning in apps combined with known location beacons to work out users locations.

As I said, I'm not using ledger anymore. The new wallet's app does not have location permission and my location is turned off anyways.

VPN is just an extra layer. I'm sure VPN can see I'm connecting to the wallet's servers, but they can't see my crypto balance (I hope the communication is encrypted by the app).

Your bank is your home

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