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"(even cheaper than any Eastern European capital)"

That may be true if you exclude Warsaw, Budapest, Prague, Bratislava, Bucharest, Sofia, Ljubljana, Zagreb, Belgrade, Sarajevo, Skopje, Riga, Talinn, Vilnius, Kiev, Bratislava and a few more: http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/rankings.jsp

Otherwise I agree with your 5 points. And Berlin is cheap in comparison with much of Western Europe.

I don't really know where they get their data and the overall picture might well be right but e.g. the rent index within Germany is quite dubious: In their list, Frankfurt and Cologne have a lower rent index than Berlin, whereas I think the map on immobilienscout24 looks a lot more believable[1]

I don't have original or better data but let's carefully say that from the anecdotes that reach me it would be useful to study what rent you would have to pay realistically (for an apartment and for office space) as a non-local coming to a given city. Specifically, as a start-up founder or engineer, you would most likely not want to live in the cheapest neighborhood, independent of if it's New York, Sofia, Warsaw, or Berlin.

tl;dr Most eastern European capitols might be a lot cheaper than Berlin but the linked data should not be trusted blindly.

[1] http://immobilienbewertung.immobilienscout24.de/karten/

"In addition, Germany has an amazing social health care system including health, unemployment and pension (when working as an employee)."

I am sorry but this is simply wrong. There are social health and pension systems but both of them suck and are horrible broken. If you are under 30 and not nearly dead you should do everything possible to get out of those and take care of your self with private insurances.

Many people in private insurance claim that it is at least equally broken, with some saying it is worse. And some of those people I'm speaking about are MDs themselves.

It is broken by German / first-worlds standards, of course, with people not having access to something similar laughing about these claims, if it was remotely funny.

Never get into private health insurance in germany. The problem is that once you are there, you cannot get back. Also, switching insurances gets almost impossible once you actually have a chronic condition. Public insurances have to accept you.

The other problem is that the prices are on a steady rise - the only easy way for private insurances to raise profits is taking it from their clients.

The way to go is public insurance with additional private extensions - it ensures that you can cancel your (sub)-contract without fearing about your general healcare plan.

"Never get into private health insurance in germany. The problem is that once you are there, you cannot get back. Also, switching insurances gets almost impossible once you actually have a chronic condition. Public insurances have to accept you."

There are ways - one example: just make sure you are employed and do not earn more than (roughly) 4500€ / m and tada: back.

"The other problem is that the prices are on a steady rise"

The same is true for the public insurance, beside they do not pay for the same services, medicaments,... as the private insurances. There are also better ways to prevent paying >600€/m when you are over 60. Just a matter of the right company / contract.

"The way to go is public insurance with additional private extensions - it ensures that you can cancel your (sub)-contract without fearing about your general healcare plan."

100% agree on this. If you are an employee.

//edit: not sure if this discussion fits here or if we, if there would be any interest, should use IRC or something else.

It's true that you are better of with the private insurances, but the health care system in Germany is still way better than the one in most other west european countries.

Not everyone speaks English. This might be true in the most touristy areas or in international corporations but it's definitely not the case in cafes, grocery stores etc. So if you move there be prepared to learn a bit of German,

For the most part everything else you mentioned is true. I'm not sure about the work permissions. Berlin is an awesome city overall.

A majority of startup folks I run into from Berlin do not speak any german at all. Many of them have been living there for a while, some for several years.

You will need German and or a translater when you talk to officials and you should get somebody with german knowledge before entering contracts, but by itself you will have an easy tiome getting around Berlin when you are in the startup relevant areas.

> A majority of startup folks I run into from Berlin do not speak any german at all. Many of them have been living there for a while, some for several years.

That is quite sad.

In one way it is, and they will run into problems if they need to deal with german burocrazy. ;)

But on the other side I find it encouraging that you can come to Berlin and different to many other cities of this world can live here without being forced to speak the language fluently first.

And if you speak and think in english all day, it becomes more problematic to get on board with the language around you.

Plus many 'normal' people do start speaking a bit of english and at least understand it.

Yes, it's cool that it's possible. I'm German, but I love English and I think everybody owes it to themselves to learn it. Also I love hearing people on the street talk English or Spanish etc. It makes me very happy to be here (moved here a few years ago, not even aware of the hype ^^). Berlin is the best, and part of that is that it's international and rather unlike other German cities :)

That said, if someone hasn't picked up a bit of German even after years, they're either extremely busy, or doing something wrong IMHO. On holidays, say in Spain, I always kind of disliked Germans sticking only to Germans, and speaking German all day. Surely you know what I mean? There's not having much time to learn the language, and there's being selfish that way.

I kind of feel the same way about this "it's a great, cheap place" stuff. This way it's not going to stay cheap, or cool, for long. It's already kind of suffered, if locals are to be believed. So let's leave it at least as nice as we found it? :)

The best thing about Berlin is the soul and the heart, not the commodities. I mean yeah, startups boom, but Tacheles is struggling - what's up with that? When in Rome, do as the Romans.. well then, if you move to Berlin, start learning German by listening to some Ton Steine Scherben :P

All of this wasn't meant as an attack. As a slight snark maybe. But not more, because generally, I'm super happy for people coming here and making it even better, I'd be a hypocrite otherwise. I'm just missing the voice of Berlin in all this. I mean that. Berlin is more funky, more beautiful and more clever than booms and VC give it credit for. To move to Berlin and not smell those particular roses strikes me as a tragedy.

Just as an observation, it is absolutely incredible how in just 25 years, the capital of one of the sternest and most ideological top-down communist states[1] has become a mecca for technology startups, the apotheosis of bottoms-up entrepreneurial capitalism.

The collapse of Communism and the Soviet Union was a critical factor in unleashing the internet wave of innovation that is still cresting today; though this occurred contemporaneously with the technological breakthroughs of the early 90s, the importance of the fall of the USSR in unleashing the web is not as widely appreciated as it was in the 90s.

[1] And that's saying something; see 'The Lives of Others'.

East Berlin was the capital of a communist state, but it was assimilated by West Berlin, one of the major cities of one of the most successful capitalist countries.

Lowest livings costs with highest quality of living. Stay in gorgeous, perfectly renovated apartments in pre-WWII residential buildings with high ceilings, right in the middle of the center and pay a fraction of costs of any other capital (even cheaper than any Eastern European capital).

Why is this true? Honest question, how can a great large Western European city cost a fraction of other, even Eastern European cities?

Was there a sudden glut of real estate recently? A lot of people suddenly leaving Berlin? But why would they leave if it so great? I am really puzzled by this.

Berlin's cheap because it's located in the middle of former East Germany, which has cheaper rents than West Germany. Also, most of the business centers are located elsewhere in West Germany. Frankfurt is the finance capital. Cologne is the media capital. Munich has a ton of large companies like Siemens, etc.

Berlin's cheap because it's located in the middle of former East Germany, which has cheaper rents than West Germany.

Right, but the original comment claims is cheaper even than most East European capitals, most of which were and still are in even worse economic shape than East Berlin.

The other claim is that it's actually a great city, but you say that other cities probably have more economic opportunity which does explain why Berlin might be so cheap.

Dude, get a history book.

World War II, the Berlin Wall. Remember the Wall only came down in 1990ish. There is still a huge swath cut thru the city where it used to be, without buildings. The former east german side has many old buildings built up in the prosperous pre-war era, that are now rather inexpensive.

In the past 20 years things have improved quite a bit in terms of renovation, but it takes time for population to build up again, and thus the costs are still low because there is abundant supply.

But a lack of buildings (due to the Wall) should mean rents are higher. Same for bombing destroying buildings, this results in fewer building on the market.

As to pre-war architecture, all of Europe, including Eastern Europe is full of it.

The only thing which might give me some insight is that you mention it takes time for the population to build back up?

So rents are cheap because Berlin is today still under populated?

But why is that? Or why are other formerly bombed out cities not also under populated? In Easter Europe there is still a lot of migration from the smaller cities and villages into the big cities. This may be why those are more expensive than Berlin. But that only begs the question why is Berlin specifically so slow to re-populate? Is it because other German large cities, even with higher rent, are more attractive? Which would explain why the rent there is higher?

What exactly is Urge.io creating?

Hype.

That may have been a little harsh, but I couldn't resist.

How easy is it to get a blue card compared to the old way of getting a work visa for germany? Would you say this is something companies are not going to worry anymore when hiring?

Stay in gorgeous, perfectly renovated apartments in pre-WWII residential buildings with high ceilings

I'm not sure everyone feels that prewar residences are a good thing. For many of us, it's sort of a reminder of everything that, you know, happened.

Why? It's just a building. Let me just add that I'm from Poland, so I understand what you are trying to say.

Because in Germany it's a building that my own ancestors, relatives, or family friends may well have owned or inhabited before being forced out.

Putting the war behind us is a good thing. Getting cheaper housing prices because Berlin has never entirely gotten over the war... is not putting the war behind us. In fact, it's capitalizing today on the lingering effects of the war.

I'm German, and spent my teenage years in South Africa. That mostly means that kids at school called me Nazi (I doubt they meant it as badly as I took it) and then when the Berlin wall came down the whole apartheid thing got big in South Africa.

The upshot is that I had quite a chip on my shoulder in my 20's.

I outgrew that. So I'd suggest, if I may be so bold, not to stay stuck in a past you can't change. Don't miss out on what's there now (wherever "there" is for you). Right now Berlin is awesome. I'd be there if my partner didn't have the opportunity of a lifetime as an economist at the Bank of England.

Oh and if you're looking for well paid work in Berlin, brush up on WinRT and go knock on Nokia's door. That company is amazing. Well, the Berlin bunch are.

Don't miss out on what's there now (wherever "there" is for you).

You mean war profiteering of real-estate values? Honestly, you Germans would be much less creepy if you stopped trying to pretend WW2 and the Shoah never happened and everything is totally happy-shiny now. You certainly don't have to apologize anymore, but you could at least have the decency to act uncomfortable about marketing apartments that are available for low, low, low prices (/salesman voice) primarily because their former residents were killed in war and genocide. You're not supposed to personally feel guilty, but you're not supposed to feel upbeat about it, either.

But hey, I know how it feels being called a Nazi.

Dude that's pretty confrontational. I don't pretend it didn't happen. I didn't say so either. No German I know pretends it didn't happen.

HN is not a forum for prejudice.

"Stay in gorgeous, perfectly renovated apartments in pre-WWII residential buildings with high ceilings"

You don't see anything disturbing about that sentence? Nothing at all? No somewhat-disturbing suggestion that apartment renters today can happily reap the benefits of dispossession and war?

I don't see anything remotely disturbing about that sentence. On the other hand, I'm disturbed by how readily you condemn other people by something they never said.

I don't mean to be harsh, but if a building that existed at the same time as the war is enough to evoke unpleasant feelings for someone, perhaps Germany is not a great place for that person to be living in general.

Hence why I don't live in Germany. And it's not that the building existed at the time of the war, but that the war is yielding profits in easy real-estate today. What I'm uncomfortable with is war profiteering, done 70 years ex-post-facto.

We've been traveling with our startup for about 4 years. Berlin is by far the best city of all the ones we've visited, though Amsterdam is very close in terms of being a nice place to live.

Living on the eastern side of the wall, rents are cheap.

The main thing that keeps us from relocating there more permanently is the immigration issue, but it looks like this may be resolved, at least partially.

One thing though, you probably do want to learn German. While many germans speak english (even more so in the startup scene) a lot of germans don't, and day to day life involves a fair bit of basic german.

But, certainly worth the effort!

genuine question: if it's so great and the capital of a rich country, why is it so cheap? (e.g. what you mentioned about apartments in the city center.)

A lot of this has to do with Berlin's history. When the wall was still standing, west Berlin wasn't the most desirable place to live in Western Germany, it being basically an island in the communist east. So while cities in the West grew wealthy with industry Berlin was always the special case, not exactly a place for major industry to take root. It also became a haven for artists, musicians, intellectuals, homosexuals, anarchists, and other people not willing to take part in the mandatory military service that was required when you lived in the West (Berlin residents were exempt).

Real estate-wise Berlin has (or at least had until recently) a surplus of vacancies: both apartments and commercial buildings. This is partly due to fluctuations in population throughout its history, and steep declines in manufacturing and population during the wall years from their pre-WW2 heights. There were also huge swaths of prime central real estate throughout the city where the wall once stood, that was unusable until it came down.

What you end up with is a city that was originally planned and built for more people than live there, with vacant factories, warehouses, and office buildings from yesteryear that are readily and cheaply repurposed.

Berlin's population is growing these days though, and internationals, people from other parts of Europe, and other parts of Germany are flocking to the city. This means rent prices are on the rise, and vacancy is dropping. It's still way cheaper than any other major European city — for now.

Before the war, Berlin was a major industrial center, with big arms manufacturers and heavy industry. After the war, the Allies demolished much of the industry -- Siemens, for instance, moved to Munich. With the division of he city, many people moved away, leaving postwar Berlin with a loss of almost a third of its population. Since then, the city hasn't recovered its peak population, leaving many empty houses and low rents. In addition, the economy in Berlin has always been, and still is, very weak, and unemployment is high. All this helps to keep the cost of living low (even if, Berlin having become capital and sort of a hip place, it's higher now than it was 15 years ago).

I talked to the CEO of a Berlin-based crypto appliance company and he literally called the place "off-shore". Berlin is located in former East Germany, so it's totally separated from the rich former West German states where all the thriving export industry is. He told me they have practically no customers in their vicinity. They apparently can easily find staff, due to the attractiveness of the city and the various universities there, but all their customers are located in former West Germany or in other countries.

If you go to southern German states like Bayern, Baden-Württemberg or Hessen, cost of living is much higher in the larger cities there than in Berlin. That's because of the export industry which has been able to grow there for the last decades, and the resulting abundance of high paying jobs.

Because it has no huge financial sector unlike New York or London. Germany's Stock-Market is located in Frankfurt.

Also after reunification, East-Berlin was vastly unpopulated, people moving into the already modern West-Germany, while the former GDR was being restored. Nowadays there is hardly any differnece between East- and West-Berlin, but there is uninhabitated room. It is getting fewer though.

I'd say the roots of that still lie in the post war structures of Germany. You know, the division of Berlin, the GDR. That's still just 23 years ago. The city center was first bombed and then at the frontiers, so it was cheap - to put it simple. East Berlin was / is especially cheap. Prices have however been increasing quickly for some years now. Gentrification is a "problem" of many parts of Berlin. And it's still cheap in comparison to Munich or Hamburg, not to speak of London.

Anyone spent a winter in Berlin? It's incredibly cold. Traveling around the city on bicycle, train etc is great during the pleasant summer months but it's literally painful during the winter.

Judging by WeatherSpark's history and averages for Berlin, the winter temps basically hover around freezing at worst, while summers are very mild. That's a strictly better climate than New York, which has comparable winters, but hot, humid summers.

I live in a city that gets much colder than that in the winters, but still has plenty of bicyclists year round. It's all a matter of perspective.

Wikipedia lists the average lows during the winter as around freezing, which is not really that cold… Comparable to (actually slighter warm than) NYC winters, for example.

We were there in the winter of 2010, which was called "the coldest winter in berlin in a century" at the time. Walking around outside on the coldest days, it was rather cold, but not that bad at all.

Certainly getting around on the u-bahn was perfectly comfortable and the s-bahn was fine too.

Really didn't mind it much at all.

The capital used to be in Bonn. Berlin was separated by the Berlin Wall for about 45 years so it's still in the process of resurrection.

i can think of two reasons from the top of my head. first, when germany and berlin were separated for decades, the east was vastly neglected. after the wall came down, huge amounts of east germans moved to the west all over germany - thus leaving berlin sort of empty and with an abundancy of space and real estate. second, having been mostly isolated after ww2, german banks and heavy industry etc settled anywhere but in berlin. economically, this still hurts berlin today. culturally, this makes berlin more of a place for creatives and free minded people who create their own paths rather than corporate suits. i'm building a startup here and it's an amazing place to be!

Berlin has structural issues and capital / politics aren't creating many jobs. The spending power lies in the western / southern states of Germany, not north eastern states.

Be aware, however, that if you're black you can get killed in Berlin. Lots of Neo-Nazis in the city.

While Neo-Nazis are a problem that is not to be understated, getting killed is uncommon in Germany in general. The last matching statistics I could find were for 2003:

In Germany, the rate of successful murders is 1.0 per 100000 inhabitants: http://www.bka.de/nn_229340/SharedDocs/Downloads/DE/Publikat... ("vollendete Fälle")

The murder rate in the US is 5.7: http://www.census.gov/prod/2005pubs/06statab/law.pdf

The rate for Berlin is higher, but thats true for American cities as well. So, getting killed in Germany is much more unlikely than getting killed in the US in general.

Also, while any extremist murder is a horrible thing, the rates in Germany are low in general. There is an exhaustive list of right-extremists murders in germany on Wikipedia:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Todesopfer_rechtsextremer_Gewal...

In 2012, there is no noted case, but that might be because those are still in court (This list only lists cases where the Judge determined the motivation to be extremist). Ignoring the number, you will find that if you really want to get killed by Nazis, going to Berlin is the worst plan, rates in other parts of Germany are much higher. There are admittedly places where I wouldn't go with black skin color because of fear of aggression, but Berlin and all larger towns are not among those.

utter rubbish. I know lots of black people who live happy lives in Berlin.

source?