Comment by shprd | Hacker News Reader

Comment by shprd | Hacker News Reader

Parent Full thread

> some land was made available to the Native Americans to build their own sovereign nation, you would be against that ?

You know that would have been great. But who are the native Americans in your example? Majority of Zionists that established Israel and their groups arrived by ships from Europe. Wouldn't that more resemble England and Spain colonization expeditions in your example? Weird.. like the story almost matches exactly to the how colonies were established

Such an ironic example to give voluntarily.

Let's take a look at the background of Israel's founding fathers and where did they came from:

- David Ben-Gurion - Poland

- Aharon Zisling - Belarus

- David Remez - Russia

- Pinchas Rosen - Germany

- Moshe Sharett - Ukraine

- Haim-Moshe Shapira - Belarus

- Yehuda Leib Maimon - Moldova

- Mordechai Bentov - Russia

- ...

Case in point, most weren't natives who lived there under "apartheid" but actually left Europe looking for a new land, backed by... England and the US (Sorry Spain, not this time).

If you're struggling to use the real events in history and have to resort to a "hypothesis", it's a sign something is off and you're twisting history a bit too much. At least make sure it's not ironic, next time.

If you were a European Jew in the late 1940s after the fall of the Nazis, you were still faced with the prospect of living under the local governance of Nazi collaborators, continued pogroms [0] and antisemitism, and potentially Joseph Stalin's USSR. It's not like everything immediately went back to normal, either in real terms or psychological ones. Even if you survived your friends, family and neighbors are GONE.

It's unsurprising that many wouldn't want to reintegrate with that society after what they experienced, even if they managed to avoid the camps (and especially if they didn't).

It is ridiculous to just throw them into the same category with the English and Spanish colonists searching for riches in the New World.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kielce_pogrom

Migrating to Palestine and living in that land is not an issue in itself. I wish them prosperity much like everyone else. The problem is the crimes that were committed by the Zionist militias such as Irgun who were viewed as terrorists orgs even under UK mandate, in additions to the settlements and establishing an apartheid state later:

1. Kicking millions of Palestinians out of their homes and villages and building illegal settlements

2. Massacres committed with no accountability (soldiers posing and documenting it, not fog of war)

Both of these practices are STILL ONGOING and have been for almost a century.

Then regular civilians come from all over the world to live in those illegal settlements and justify it or claim they have nothing to do with the atrocities when they're a major support for it and why the suffering continues.

Many more problems were results of Israel being built on ethno-religious foundations:

3. Giving refuge to pedophiles (wanted by US and INTERPOL) because they're Jewish? WTF? [1]

4. The recent rape and sexual harassment of prisoners [2]. Israeli protestors went to the streets and even rioted to defend the soldiers accused of it and were proud of their actions. Tell me how should I feel when I see them doing that?

5. The attack on World Central Kitchen convoy? [3] Killing 7 aid workers in multiple clearly marked vehicles on a coordinated mission with the IDF. What came of it? They just laid off a couple of people like the commander Nochi Mandel who oversaw the attack. The same commander signed an open letter to block humanitarian aid. So what is the punishment for killing 7 innocent aid workers? You move to the private sector it seems with higher pay grade.

Fuck me! Any group that commit such crimes and act proud with no shame are lunatics and should be held accountable but this doesn't seem to happen in Israel. Even the citizens seem to take pride in it. [4]

My problem isn't with specific group. I'm referring to Israel as a state. I don't care about the religion of its people or what land they live on as long it's lawful and they're no committing war crimes. I'd feel the same about crimes in Ukraine, Afghanistan, or Africa.

[1] https://www.cbsnews.com/news/how-jewish-american-pedophiles-...

[2] https://theintercept.com/2024/08/09/israel-prison-sde-teiman...

[3] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68727828

[4] https://truthout.org/articles/israeli-militants-riot-over-in...

There is nothing made up about 1200 years of oppression by an empire that was built on conquest, numerous forms of slavers, ethnic cleaning, and genocide.

This is not something that happened thousands of years ago, it ended 100 years ago, and is directly relevant to what is going on today.

The fact that some of the founders of Israel were the descendants of those who fled their native lands due to oppression does not change anything, any more than Palestinians who are born in different countries would no longer have ties to their homeland in the Middle East.

And yes, I firmly believe that the Palestinians have a right to a country of their own, but not at the cost of eliminating Israel and imposing sharia law

> The fact that some of the founders of Israel were the descendants of those who fled their native lands

Only some founders were foreigners? Do you want the full list? Literally none, 0%, were "native", born in the region or anywhere near it, here's the full list of people who signed it and where they came from:

- David Ben-Gurion (Poland)

- Daniel Auster (Ukraine)

- Yitzhak Ben-Zvi (Ukraine)

- Mordechai Bentov (Poland)

- Eliyahu Berligne (Belarus)

- Fritz Bernstein (Germany)

- Rachel Cohen-Kagan (Ukraine)

- Eliyahu Dobkin (Belarus)

- Yehuda Leib Fishman (Moldova)

- Wolf Gold (Poland)

- Meir Grabovsky (Moldova)

- Avraham Granovsky (Moldova)

- Yitzhak Gruenbaum (Poland)

- Kalman Kahana (Poland)

- Eliezer Kaplan (Belarus)

- Avraham Katznelson (Belarus)

- Saadia Kobashi (Yemen)

- Moshe Kolodny (Belarus)

- Yitzhak-Meir Levin (Poland)

- Meir David Loewenstein (Denmark)

- Zvi Luria (Poland)

- Golda Meyerson (Ukraine)

- Nahum Nir (Poland)

- David-Zvi Pinkas (Hungary)

- Felix Rosenblueth (aka Pinchas Rosen) (Germany)

- David Remez (Belarus)

- Berl Repetur (Ukraine)

- Zvi Segal (Poland)

- Mordechai Shatner (Ukraine)

- Ben-Zion Sternberg (Ukraine)

- Bechor-Shalom Sheetrit (Morocco)

- Haim-Moshe Shapira (Belarus)

- Moshe Shertok (Ukraine)

- Herzl Vardi (Lithuania)

- Meir Vilner (Lithuania)

- Zerach Warhaftig (Belarus)

- Aharon Zisling (Belarus)

37 signatories, and not a single one were from that land or had any clear links to it whatsoever. You act like it was to protect the locals but not a single one was present? How much clearer do you want to it to be? It was a land grab from the very beginning

Reply on news.ycombinator.com