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Comment by bpodgursky | Hacker News Reader

Starlink is significantly more resistant to graft than terrestrial service.

For the most part SpaceX is playing nice with regulators, but if Zimbabwe's government tried to extort Starlink users, SpaceX could just open up service and Zimbabwe could do absolutely nothing to stop them.

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It's a little more complicated than that. There are two international treaties at play here (that the US has ratified)... the Outer Space Treaty requires that countries regulate the actions in outer space of their citizens and companies, in compliance with the outer space treaty and other international treaties (cf. Article VI and Article III). The Convention of the International Telecommunications Union of 1997 (the last version the us has ratified) specifies that the US shall abide by the rules of the ITU, including in allocation of satellite spectrum (Article 6). The ITU allows countries to limit the use of spectrum in certain bands (including those used by starlink) within their borders.

So Zimbabwe actually can ban starlink. And if it ignores Zimbabwe... well Zimbabwe will complain to the ITU, and the ITU to the US. The US would be under obligation to regulate Starlink... with the minor exception of its not clear that the US has any agency that can, at least under current law.

Anyway, it would be a total mess if Elon did that (except in a country like Russia where the US wants him to do that)... and I have no idea what would happen.

No one would allow a business perceived to be US Owned to play games like that in Africa right now anyway. With the Chinese sitting right there ready to swoop in and help the affected nations problem solve.

We’re not as dumb in the US as the rest of the world seems to think.

The rest of the world only thinks the US is dumb because they rely upon us to make the kind of decisions that they don't want to have to make. It's easy to criticize without real skin in the game.

I mean Trump is an idiot... but umm... Berlusconi?

Sure they could. They could make it illegal to possess Starklink equipment within their borders, in the name of “national security” or whatnot.

This is the case in Iran despite there being an ever growing number of them there.

Problem in Africa is that the Chinese will sail in with their alternatives at the first sign of trouble. Right now, we can’t have games like that in Africa. We’re in an almost daily grind trying to counter Chinese influence as it is. The last thing we need is Elon sailing in torpedoing our efforts.

We need to be cognizant of the fact that we’re no longer the only game in town, and act accordingly when using power. Soft or hard.

Well if the point is that Zimbabwe starts playing games and corruption starlink can ignore them. Sure the Chinese could play Zimbabwe’s game, but then they’d likely be more expensive and worse quality by blocking things the government doesn’t like. If people can still access starlink why would they use the state sanctioned but crappy provider?

Because China isn't exactly famed for its corporations' market clearing prices being expensive, and most people would rather buy legal satcomms equipment (and VPN in, if they really need to access something the Zimbabwean government doesn't want them to see or the Chinese government cares about Africans seeing) than jump through hoops to get the equipment and subscription payments to the American service, bandwidth which Starlink has minimal motivation to give away cheaply anyway.

The Chinese don’t have sth similar right now, right? Also at this point tbh would prefer Chinese whatever over us/starlink. At least it will be more rational.

They've already started launching their own satellite internet constellation. It will likely be less capable once completed and take longer to complete, but they are aiming to have that capability.

It is the case in Iran, India, China, South Africa, Russia, North Korea, Ghana, Botswana, Zimbabwe, Occupied Ukraine, Cuba, Venezuela, Sudan, Myanmar, ... a hell of a lot more countries than people seem to realize in this thread.

Almost explains why Musk bought the US government.

I believe that easily totals up to that for more than half of the human population connecting to Starlink is illegal.

Many of these examples are wrong, or essentially wrong. For example it does not work in 99% of India. There are just a few border areas where the geofencing doesn't work.

Same with Occupied Ukraine. It's difficult to pin the area of control down precisely, given that Ukraine uses Starlink for combat capability.

Starlink can talk direct to cell phones.

Only for extremely low-bandwidth service, good for texting and such.

Also, only using allocated spectrum. Starlink Direct-to-Cell requires partnership with mobile providers that hold that spectrum, like T-Mobile. Terrestrial network using those frequencies would probably swamp the signal from space. Legally, Starlink can't use those frequencies without permission from each country.

That would be enough to get that information, totalitarian governments don't want you to get. So expect regulations regarding those smartphones soon.

And be aware if you travel with a satellite capable device (india apparently also don't like them):

https://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/hiking-and-b...

India sees the ability for anyone to anonymously post things on the Internet as all kinds of stupid, and heavily regulates the access to the Internet so any in-country activity can be tracked back to an individual.

There's no way to put the smartphone genie back in the bottle and there's no way to visually differentiate satelote capable phones. It's going to be easy to smuggle them across borders.

Maybe, but would you currently like to go to india with a satellite capable device?

And in the future I can imagine mandatory software that needs to be installed in many countries, to be able to do any buisness there.

Not specifically against satellites - but for using the bus, paying the hotel, getting a appointment at the police, ... and that app would make sure, you only connect to authorized means of communication.

The hard part will be preventing that shit to become universal.

Those work far worse (bandwidth) than the dedicated terminals.

Has Starlink as an org shown any interest in resisting local pressure to that extent?

I'm asking, I don't know, but even when technically feasible there are lots of concerns with defying local governments, good and bad.

Iran, Myanmar, Sudan (not even the US government or US Media wants them there), Cuba, Venezuela.

Somewhat isolated countries… might apply to some African nations.

Isn't Starlink subject to frequency spectrum licensing in each country it operates in?

It's in the same band as regular satellite internet, so the licensing is already dealt with.

Zimbabwe could do absolutely nothing to stop them

They could issue an order to local payment processors to block all payments to Starlink...like Brazil did. In this particular hypothetical, Zimbabwe would have more solid legal grounds for blocking payment than the Brazilian judge (TLDR: X didn't adhere to all of Brazil's regulations and refused to pay the resulting fines so a judge deemed Starlink a related company and blocked payments to Starlink until X complied.)

> (TLDR: X didn't adhere to all of Brazil's regulations and refused to pay the resulting fines so a judge deemed Starlink a related company and blocked payments to Starlink until X complied.)

IIRC, the judge didn't block payments to Starlink; instead, the judge told the banks to take the value of the fines from the Starlink bank accounts.

Per Reuters, the judge blocked the financial accounts of Starlink, meaning that Brazilian companies were barred from conducting financial transactions with it. https://www.reuters.com/technology/brazil-judge-blocks-starl... https://www.aljazeera.com/economy/2024/8/29/brazil-judge-blo...

Wouldn't that be considered a form of dumping if they offered it for free?

I didn't say free, they'd just allow signups and ignore local restrictions.

How will they collect payment without an in-country business entity?

This happens all the time for many many businesses. Do you think all software vendors, small businesses that ship products have an in-country business entity? They just take online payments.

Most software vendors do not make themselves a target, they rely on the cooperation of banks in-country to process payments.

Same way Russians pay for Steam

Dogecoin.

Note that Starlink requires a ground station near the users.

How does that work when I get Starlink in the middle of the ocean as I have done?

Not since they turned on the lasers.

Thats still a massive compromise that only suits for low population density like in oceans.

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