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Comment by dkhenry | Hacker News Reader

Why can't I just get any computer with no operating system installed whatsoever. This isn't rocket science here, just format the hard drive and give me the computer. Then subtract the money you pay Microsoft for the windows license. If there is some contractual obligation Dell has with Microsoft to not do this then we need to start considering another round of antitrust proceedings.

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I don't know what the current situation is for Dell, but a couple of years ago I worked at a company that sold laptops like this, mostly targeted towards businesses but ocasionally catering to regular users. The moment they saw a cheaper option of the same laptop (no OS pre-installed) they went for that and then came bitching the same day that their computer wouldn't boot.

I imagine Dell must suffer from the same problem on their online stores.

So put it behind a big scary warning, maybe even in a different section of the site.

That's more or less what they did when they were selling Ubuntu laptops before. It seems that despite the warning, enough people unwittingly bought one to cause headaches for Dell. I imagine their margins are thin enough that even a few returns will get a manager frowning.

My understanding is that the big problem is that the pre-loaded crapware on a Windows PC pays more than Windows costs (in bulk license deals for resellers). In that case just selling it with a wiped disk would be more expensive, not less.

Hi, I lived in China (Dalian), and laptops are sold with FreeDOS. It's mainly used to boot and to make sure the laptop is working. And to check that you get what you paid for! People who can pay for Windows don't live in China, that's why :) (well of course a minority can, but they don't buy their laptops in the same stores...). In US/CA/EU/Japan I think everybody can afford to pay the little extra for a windows licence.

Sure I can afford to pay a little extra for a windows license, but why on earth should I be expected to "pay a little extra" for something I'm not going to use?

My point above, however, was that I might not be paying extra - the crapware pushers might be subsidizing my linux box (with an extraneous tithe to MS).

I spend much of the year in China and I find the laptops overpriced or underpowered for the price they are offered for.

Sure, comparing retail price in China to the west usually has China being lower. However, most savvy buyers in the west buy their laptops from deals or outlet and with endless coupons. I haven't found either Dell's or Lenovo's outlet in China yet. Do they exist in China?

I have also heard this. If you're going to install something new anyway, you're just letting them subsidize your new computer. I don't have a problem with this.

Directly, I have a little bit of a problem with MS collecting money when they're not adding anything to the situation. That said, I have less of a problem than if it was my money, and still less of a problem given that I don't exactly have a lot of love for the organizations whose money it is.

Indirectly, I have a somewhat larger problem because it leads to things like fewer cheap Linux laptops available.

In Romania a lot of the laptops come with FreeDOS so there is no Windows tax. Of course, these are usually the cheapest ones since it's expected that people will install pirated Windows.

Although they come with FreeDOS, this is not a signal the hardware is Linux compatible.

While it's not possible to get the computer without the OS installed, you're allowed to decline the Windows license and get a refund from Dell. http://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=1073

Of course, it's not as convenient as the ideal circumstance of not having Windows installed by default, but it's the next best alternative nonetheless.

I think it's all about demand. You can compare the following two links for yourself. It's really easy to get a laptop without any OS in India.

Amazon: http://amzn.to/OasYWz

Flipkart: http://bit.ly/Q72mcV

Selling an OS-free website is actually doing the Linux community a disservice. The reason is that it takes time and fidgeting in order to make everything work on Linux (and you can, in fact, screw up your computer if you don't set up fans correctly, for example), and the average developer (and, of course, any other user) doesn't want to waste time making suspend function when they can be working. For this reason, desktop Linux will not gain any significant market share if it is not pre-installed. This project will raise the Linux desktop market share, and thus encourage others to do something similar.

If there is some contractual obligation Dell has with Microsoft to not do this then we need to start considering another round of antitrust proceedings.

There is, that's why some computers come with FreeDOS.

Even with FreeDOS why can' I get that option on _all_ computers. And lets say there are some hardware concerns with FreeDOS why not just ship it with no OS at all ?

I would assume that if dell had an easy way to get a laptop with no operating system, it would be a support and consumer trust nightmare. They would then need to support how to install an operating system for every customer, as that's the only thing you'd be able to do when you bought your system.

If the os comes pre-installed, they only have to support drivers, and hackers like you or i can strip it if we want at our own risk.

> Why can't I just get any computer with no operating system installed whatsoever.

Because it's a very small market. Not very many people want to buy something that they can't use out of the box.

> Why can't I just get any computer with no operating system installed whatsoever.

This is illegal in many countries, as a computer isn't bootable in that situation.

Citation? I buy all sorts of things that don't do anything until you configure/assemble/connect them.

I heard already several times that if you sell a full PC, then it was to be working when it is bought.

Computer parts are not full PCs.

I'll check if I can find any example.

yeah what about something like the raspberry pi that doesnt even have built in storage?

Those are not full PCs you buy in a consumer shop.

If the definition is that specific, then the solution is simple; just don't sell them as "full PCs".

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