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Comment by pclmulqdq | Hacker News Reader

Then the choice you are offering is how you would like to kill democracy. Overturning a democratic election is a certain way to do it.

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Ok, then the answer is simple for me. We kill it with something that is not fascism. And we try to kill it with something that does not end with the suffering of millions of people.

And we try to keep the best option that could lead to having a working democracy again in the shortest possible time.

> something that is not fascism

So let the will of the people stand and then it will just be a democracy with a leader you don't like. Overturning the election is the fascist thing to do.

What if the "will of the people" is for the country to turn fascist?

Does fascism stops being fascism when it has popular approval?

It doesn't, but if you're in a democracy and the majority well and truly does not want it to be a democracy, I don't think you can stop the transition. Attempting to "save" democracy by imposing a minority will on the majority merely guarantees the end of democracy.

It's rarely as blunt as this, though. Usually people who support such politics will insist that it is democratic, and they do have a point: what they really want is a democracy in which the majority (which includes themselves) gets to do whatever it wants to others.

I agree that you can't really legislate this kind of sentiment away, but I don't think attempts to do so are entirely useless, either - they slow down the process, which, at the very least, buys more time for potential targets to realize what is happening and get out of harm's way through emigration etc.

Dude, you so much reveal what a brainwashing does to the people it is just unreal. We've seen that behavior few weeks ago after the US elections. How the evil has come now what we'll do etc. It is really a sad there're people who decide theirs truth is the only valid one.

I think you don't fully grasp my point. But maybe I don't grasp yours. Can you explain further?

Not much worth arguing about in this thread. Multiple sleeper accounts and coopted accounts with the same talking points about how someone who used illegal means to sway votes should just be allowed to take the reins of power with a fine. It's not logical and isn't real discussion just the same nefarious actors using social media to try to sway opinion. Get that good nights sleep and I'm glad your country didn't succumb to this new method of warfare like mine did.

You automatically jump to “anything but fascism” as a solution but that’s not a solution at all. That was Harris & Walz do-nothing strategy advertised as a “just don’t vote for Trump.” This type of anti-campaign is fundamentally rooted at brainwashing us to discount any and all fundamental problems to be solved. Instead, it relies on their constituents to rely on opinions, rather than facts. Relying on opinions and beliefs aren’t inherently bad, but when an entire campaign doesn’t present any other reason to vote for them other than “you’re an idiot if you advocate for a party that claims their election was hacked” or “Think about your daughters future,” that campaign is gaslighting the electorate to believe detractors to those views must be anti-democracy. Lo and behold, 2024 results come in and now the losing party cries “There’s no way the majority of Americans like this guy, early votes must’ve been thrown out.” Congrats, you’ve been brainwashed to only see flaws when your ideas and beliefs aren’t validated and reach for any explanation that preserves your worldview- even explanations that you’ve laughed at when presented by the other side)

It was not a democratic election specifically because of massive foreign interference. Democracy doesn't work with an adversary propaganda channel in your society. This is why RT and Sputnik news were banned just about everywhere in the West. This is why the US has given Tiktok a year to sell their operations to a US company or gtfo. After this I hope the EU follows suit, kicks them out or at least massively fines them into compliance.

> Democracy doesn't work with an adversary propaganda channel in your society.

So the insinuation is that people stop having free agency when they’re allowed to view certain kinds of “wrong” speech? Therefore they aren’t entitled to a vote in an election? That’s not democracy, that’s textbook tyranny.

The correct course of action is to stop the interference before the people vote. Once they vote, the will of the people has been revealed, the ruling party is a sore loser, and you've lost your chance.

Yes, but they were sleeping at the wheel and making the wrong sort of plans that they always make without accounting for foreign interference.

Too bad. Sounds like they fucked up and are now sore losers.

They're technically still hold the #1 ballot but now they need other parties to form a coalition, just like in other European countries (Germany, The Nederlands). Which is not that bad, because this party was founded by those trained by Gorbachev's KGB to replace Romania's communist leadership and took the clothes of social democracy. How they came to turn against Russia is not entirely clear. Maybe they tried a balancing act between NATO/EU and Russia as Moldova did in the past, but some factions saw the writing on the wall.

Although in the abstract, we are on the same page, I think it _was_ a democratic election. With interference, a lot of it, but the will of the voters was CG. It's just that CG would have most likely destroyed democracy and destroyed our country.

If the end result of democracy is fascism, one can simply not allow this transition to happen in good conscience. I fetishise democracy less than I value the truth and in turn that less than I value not having people suffer.

We might have dug our own grave here, and the situation is pretty serious. I for one am not a big fan of the CCR decision and am thankful I was not the one to make it. But I understand how they might come to this decision.

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