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Comment by javajosh | Hacker News Reader

I really admire Resig, and this post contains a few gems:

1. Knew about PPK[0], didn't know about JZ[1]

2. Feature detection came about from writing this book! Which generalizes too: writing is a great way to innovate (something pg has said, too).

3. A nice little jab at GRRM, who thoroughly deserves it.

4. An exciting glimpse into the future of computer science pedagogy by way of JavaScript in the browser. (And I can't help but wonder if this is an oblique response to the recent Alan Kay Dr. Dobbs interview, where Kay asserts, "The Web, in comparison, is a joke. The Web was done by amateurs."[2])

5. Points out that even the best of us can get stuck in a procrastination loop.

6. Resig is going to finish a JavaScript book [3]

[0] http://www.quirksmode.org/

[1] http://perfectionkills.com/

[2] http://www.drdobbs.com/architecture-and-design/interview-wit...

[3] http://jsninja.com/

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Regarding #2, regulars on comp.lang.javascript have been saying this since at least 2008, notably in critiques of jQuery. Resig even posted to some of these threads defending jQuery's misbehavior (though I don't recall if he defended browser sniffing). I find it very surprising that it took the act of writing a book to realize this fundamental design flaw. And for those who will want to say "oh, that's just because David Mark is so grating," quite a few mild-mannered regulars reached the same conclusion, so it's not as though there was one firebrand suggesting this.

Interestingly, jQuery was the first major library to switch to a feature detection model. Looking around it appears that a number of other libraries still use browser sniffing (such as MooTools, Prototype, and Dojo). The reason why I switched jQuery over to that model is largely due to my personal research into the matter during the process of writing Secrets of the JavaScript Ninja (largely as a desire to future-proof jQuery against upcoming bug fixes by major browsers).

It's rather amusing to see a case where I, unfortunately, fed the trolls trotted out as an example of future decision making. In this case the decision behind this was my own and largely done through my personal examination of the jQuery code base.

Obviously your decision to implement feature detection in jQuery was your own, but you're doing a disservice to the comp.lang.javascript regulars who laid this out for you. Describing David Mark as a troll is also unfair: I concede he has been rude to you and others, but his knowledge was and is extensive and, like it or not, was something that at the time you could learn from.

Also, here's Resig's take on feature detection circa '07:

"Yawwwwnnnnn.... this is, quite possibly, the most inane set of ramblings set up by someone who has obviously never created a JavaScript library of any kind, nor has used JavaScript code in any sort of production environment."

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.lang.javascript/QVlJ0bz...

    >> Do you have any idea how many agents jQuery will identify as IE?
    >The ones we care about?

I wonder why jQuery eventually turned to feature testing...

I think that post has less to do with my opinions of feature testing and more to do with the environment presented by that usergroup.

As to why jQuery moved to feature testing, we discussed that in the jQuery 1.3 release notes: http://docs.jquery.com/Release:jQuery_1.3

Well, you did respond to the code critiques after all, so that makes it about jQuery's source.

But I do agree that your opinion was biased by the behavior of the people participating that discussion (if that's what you meant). Nonetheless, IMO, a community leader should be able to deal with criticism, and I don't recall reading personal attacks.

As of your link, I was being sarcastic.

I wish I could say that I haven't been personally attacked by them, unfortunately it has been rather extensive and ongoing. Thankfully I've been able to avoid most of it by not visiting clj since 2008-ish and blocking choice Twitter users. Sometimes is trickles back up to me from people letting me know what's going on.

I'm 100% fine with code criticism - I think you'll find no JS library more open to it than the jQuery project, we've shifted the code base many times over the years making large quality/performance/API improvements based upon criticism. That being said I have no interest in talking with people - valid code criticism or not - if they're personally attacking me as well.

So you do agree that browser sniffing is a short-sighted method to test for browser capabities and that clj has been preaching on it since 07?

I'm not judging or anything, but sticking around on clj and trying to argument could have been very beneficial for both jQuery anc clj itself. There are ways of ignoring people in usenet, you know.

Also, Juriy, whom you cite in the book's preface, was a regular there long before his website really took off. That means you didn't dislike every member ;)

He just wrote a post about being attacked, and you attack him? (Perhaps I'm misreading your tone, but it seems to be really aggressive)

I'm not attacking anyone (at least not on purpose), I'm just trying to make a point here.

Resig's actions towards clj effectively turned his whole userbase against everyone and everything that was written in that newsgroup. Thousands of unexperienced js developers shunning great advice just because it came from someone Resig had a beef.

I do believe that it had a negative effect on the javascript industry for a few years.

Yeah, JavaScript really hasn't gone anywhere since Resig left clj in 2008.

That's obviously not what I have said.

Let's just stifle real discussion so we can be sure no aggressive statements are made and no one's feelings get hurt.

The nannying influence of people like you is poisonous to a community. Your own comment is a veiled but difficult-to-analyse attack. Your weak observation asks us cow to your vision so that we will all respect one another and feel good about ourselves. You do not respect the technical aspect of this community which would value truth and quality discussion over feeling.

Or perhaps, lets behave like adults and have adult conversations with other adults.

Lets be 'adults', huh? I'm not surprised that your response would have emotional and vague language. What does that mean 'lets behave like adults'?

What's the story with that David Mark guy? Based on the parent to that post (https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.lang.javascript/QVlJ0bz...) he seems to be mentally ill or something - there's about three pages of stream-of-consciousness ranting.

Or maybe I just haven't been on usenet news for a while...

   it took the act of writing a book to realize this fundamental design flaw.

Not cool. Most everyone is too close to their own work.

Writers need editors. Artists need critics. Devs need QA/test.

Fortunately, letting code rest for 6+ months is a pretty good strategy for getting a "new mind".

So is explaining your work to someone else, such as writing about it.

Exactly. Eventually everyone turned to feature testing and it became common sense in clj.

comp.lang.javascript's FAQ on browser-sniffing: http://jibbering.com/faq/notes/detect-browser/

I think you and I are saying the same thing, but to be clear, this was "common sense" on CLJ long before mainstream libraries adopted the practice.

Yes, that's what I was trying to say.

What is GRRM?

Sorry, should have added a footnote for him: http://georgerrmartin.com/ There's also a wikipedia article, of course.

He wrote the first 3 books of his 7 book series at a normal pace, about every 18 months, but then slowed to a crawl for book 4 - something like a 5 year delay. Writer's block happens, but what makes people angry is that he continues to have an extensive "extra-curricular" schedule involving workshops, cons, and travel. And he's told his fans "I don't owe you anything," and has shown not only not-shame, but active antipathy to those who have the temerity to call him out on his irresponsibility. What's worse, is that his bad behavior is being rewarded with new interest thanks to the HBO miniseries of the books.

I mean, manipulating financial markets for gain, losing your bets, and taking taxpayer money to give yourself a bonus is one thing, but leaving fantasy readers in a lurch is quite another level of villainy.

So where's your chunky fantasy trilogy then, if they're so easy to write?

Edit, since I'm being downvoted, and that was written in a hurry on the train: I wrote a book too. It was really fucking hard, and took a long time, but I'm ultimately happy with the way it came out, and that I took the time to do it properly. The reward for that care and hard work seems to be not "great book, thanks!" but people bitching about how long it took to write.

Hence, I now have a very low tolerance for people complaining about other people's work and being whiny and entitled.

Neil Gaiman says it best. George R.R. Martin is not your bitch.

http://journal.neilgaiman.com/2009/05/entitlement-issues.htm...

Gosh, I don't recall saying that he was my bitch. Really. Can you point out where I did?

Writing code (which is what most of us do here, I think) is a lot like writing books, so it's not like I don't understand blockage or the whole "having a life" thing. Heck, I could understand him never writing another word again if his muse died. That's human and understandable. The thing that draws my ire is not the lack of productivity, but the attitude he has about it. (Which is less that GRRM is my bitch, and more that he considers me his.)

> Gosh, I don't recall saying that he was my bitch. Really. Can you point out where I did?

>> He wrote the first 3 books of his 7 book series at a normal pace, about every 18 months, but then slowed to a crawl for book 4 - something like a 5 year delay. Writer's block happens, but what makes people angry is that he continues to have an extensive "extra-curricular" schedule involving workshops, cons, and travel. And he's told his fans "I don't owe you anything," and has shown not only not-shame, but active antipathy to those who have the temerity to call him out on his irresponsibility.

You didn't call him a bitch, but I do get a feeling that you feel he should drop his extra-curricular activities until he is done with the book, he owes his fans, should show shame for not completing the book etc.

He is a writer who writes books for living. You bought his book and that entitles you to the book and nothing else. Extra-curricular, owing something to you and shame for not following up aren't included with the book.

> (Which is less that GRRM is my bitch, and more that he considers me his.)

Yeah. If he says "I will write when I feel like writing" is totally considering you his bitch, right? Gosh, the sense of entitlement.

> Gosh, I don't recall saying that he was my bitch. Really. Can you point out where I did?

Sure, here you go:

> has shown not only not-shame, but active antipathy to those who have the temerity to call him out on his irresponsibility.

Actually, that's calling him out precisely for his mistake - not admitting his irresponsibility, and shamelessly attacking those who've pointed it out. Can you think of any other author who's done this? Gaiman's piece is riddled with holes, and is a rather obvious partisan piece - writers unite and all that. Intriguingly, even within that piece, Gaiman reveals that he felt bad about blowing his deadline, something that GRRM not only hasn't revealed, but has attacked people for wondering why not.

There is actually a good reason for readers to prefer writers who demonstrate some sense of responsibility for finishing what they start. Writers that do not demonstrate a sense of responsibility do not seem to actually finish their work. And whatever Gaiman or Martin say, there is a (at least weak) contract between author and reader that the writer will finish a series that he begins. If the author does not want to make that contract, then he is free to write a stand-alone novel, and then write sequels as he likes.

> that's calling him out precisely for his mistake - not admitting his irresponsibility

By deciding that him taking time writing his book and not living as a hermit is "a mistake" and "irresponsible" you — and others in your situation — are very much calling him your bitch.

> Can you think of any other author who's done this?

Erm... yeah? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Jordan

Here's a second one for the same price: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Knuth

And a third one because why not: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazushi_Hagiwara

> something that GRRM not only hasn't revealed

At this point, does GRRM even have deadlines?

> And whatever Gaiman or Martin say, there is a (at least weak) contract between author and reader that the writer will finish a series that he begins.

No, there is not.

> If the author does not want to make that contract, then he is free to write a stand-alone novel, and then write sequels as he likes.

That doesn't make a lick of sense, the author could fucking be hit by a bus tomorrow and you as a reader would be left in the cold just the same, except without the ability to find shit to bitch about.

Here's an idea if you don't like waiting and the risk that includes: only read finished series. There, you're done, the advice is free and have a nice day.

That was a good read - thanks :)

That's a whole bucket of meh, it took Knuth 32 year between TAOCP Volume 3 and the beginning of the volume 4 facsimile.

I can't help but cheer for GRRM, even though I'm waiting for the next book to be published.

How dare he!

George R. R. Martin. Wrote the Game of Thrones novel series. He's known for taking his time with writing his novels and instead focuses on other things, like ranting about the NY Jets. His last book, "A Dance of Dragons" took about 5+ years to finish and get to publication. It was published in 2011, the last novel before that was published in 2005.

George R. R. Martin is the author of the 'A Song of Ice and Fire' series, otherwise known as Game of Thrones--the title of the first book and the HBO adaptation.

He has gone as long as six years between book releases in the series.

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