Comment by JumpCrisscross | Hacker News Reader

Comment by JumpCrisscross | Hacker News Reader

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Article 77 of the Korean Constitution:

"1. When it is required to cope with a military necessity or to maintain the public safety and order by mobilization of the military forces in time of war, armed conict or similar national emergency, the President may proclaim martial law as prescribed by law.

2. Martial law shall be of two types, extraordinary martial law and precautionary martial law.

3. Under extraordinary martial law, special measures may be taken with respect to the necessity for warrants, freedom of speech, the press, assembly and association, or the powers of the Executive and the Judiciary as prescribed by law.

4. When the President has proclaimed martial law, he shall notify the National Assembly without delay.

5. When the National Assembly requests the lifting of martial law with the concurrent vote of a majority of the total members of the National Assembly, the President shall comply."

https://www.constituteproject.org/constitution/Republic_of_K... page 16

It sounds like the National Assembly just needs to meet & vote to counter this?

From Yonhap (Korea state news): "Activities related to National Assembly, political parties banned: martial law commander." [1] "Entry, exit from National Assembly blocked after declaration of martial law." [2]

[1] https://en.yna.co.kr/view/AEN20241203013900315 [2] https://en.yna.co.kr/view/AEN20241203013200315

Is he going to ban voting next?

I think the next step is just to jail anybody who might vote against him.

IDK why you are grey right now because his statements reported by CNN are basically a purging of the opposition party.

The entire reason he declared martial law was to eliminate the opposition.

Given the economics of that, it seems like it'd be pretty ineffective. It'd be easier to simply postpone elections indefinitely

That is what martial law is all about: pausing democratic norms to deal with an emergency. Voting, public gatherings, a free internet ... it is open season.

What a time to be alive to see several major democracies in decline or turmoil all within the same time window.

"I'm sick of this"

-- Sepultura (1993)

"What goes around... Comes around" — Sepultura (1996)

Is that even legal? Because if it is, that means the president can prevent martial law from ever being lifted. The whole constitution would be pointless.

What does legal matter if the guys holding the guns don't care about the law?

Suddenly the rationale of the 2nd Amendment in the US Constitution becomes clear.

> the rationale of the 2nd Amendment in the US Constitution becomes clear

About the one thing this situation does not need is armed randos taking matters into their own hands. Currently, Seoul is in a constitutional crisis. The President is required to lift martial law. He has not yet done so. If people on the streets started shooting at each other, he'd have legitimate reason to send in the military. Korea's lack of a 2nd Amendment is one of the things keeping this constitutional crisis from what would have been the stupidest civil war of the millenium.

GP was responding to a hypothetical situation where the military does not care about the law and supports the president unconditionally. In this situation does the 2nd amendment make sense?

No, because by resisting at all you are already criminal, so why does it matter that you are legally allowed to own firearms when 2A supporters insist that banning firearms does not limit access to firearms?

A tyrannical state will not care that you are "legally" allowed to own firearms, and rebels do not get rights.

Also, I'll believe the claim that 2A is to prevent tyranny when I see it, because most of the time when you ask someone who supports the 2nd amendment about slave revolts, you tend to find out how little they care about "tyranny"

Consider the context into which the amendment was written; a very bloody war between Crown loyalists and separatists (all British subjects, mind you) had just been completed. The idea of a United States citizen was still a dream. That individuals owned and operated their own weapons was the sole reason the separatists won.

I'll point to a more recent example: the Los Angeles riots in 1992. Koreatown was protected by gun toting citizens, literally fending off the mob. (Whether we categorize the mobs as tyrannical is more pedantic than anything else, the men with weapons maintained their agency because of the threat of lethal force. Guns against a government yield the same end, maintaining agency when others may try to take it from you.)

Maybe when weapons were more limited in destruction. But, now the government has weaponry supremacy, and I don’t think you would want anybody to have access to artillery, fighter jets, etc.

The second amendment refers to a well-organized militia (which requires the average person to be able to own guns), not individuals taking things into their own hands.

I have bad news for you about which side of things a lot of the 2nd amendment fans are gonna be on if this comes to the US.

The history with actual cases of private arms being used to support or to resist government tyranny in the US can be generously described as "mixed".

It's also telling that so many instances like that, in the US and elsewhere, start with "... and then the good guys (or sometimes bad guys) seized a barely-guarded state armory". It's debatable how relevant private arms are to the resistance of tyranny anyway.

Foreign occupations are a whole other matter. When the call's coming from inside the house, plenty of your fellow "freedom-lovers" are helpfully using their liberty to liberate you from your liberty.

I always find it hilarious that people think the second amendment would matter much in a US civil war (or whatever internal conflict you want to imagine).

If the US military is united behind one group then that's that. If the US military is divided, then god help us caught in the middle.

Yeah, a non-divided military + police usually means a very short and decisive civil war, in observable modern cases. The exceptions tend to involve a divided armed forces, or extensive foreign interference on behalf of the rebels (see: Syria).

For some reason, folks like to cite US foreign intervention failures as proof motivated locals with rifles can beat the US military, but that's not really the right thing to look at, as a bunch of things about those situations are materially different from a civil war (plus there is in every case a ton more to the resistance's armament and materiel than some guys taking their old AKs out of the closet, dusting them off, and digging into their prepper-crates of MREs)

Consider insurgency as a possible way a civil war would play out. Asymmetrical wars (or Small Wars) are very hard for conventional armies to fight. And even harder to win.

Given significant foreign support, sure.

Also what good are small arms against a government with tanks, fighter jets, drones, cluster bombs, napalm, attack helicopters, cruise missiles etc. Good luck with your AR15 :P

No it doesn't. People out in the streets brandishing their guns would only make the situation worse, not better. It's also worth noting that the 2nd Amendment didn't prevent a January 6 either.

A more interesting take is that 2nd didn't make it suceed. The protesters very well knew it would have been pointless to bring guns to a figher jet fight.

https://web.archive.org/web/20230815202046/https://www.nytim...

The 2nd amendment was added because the founding fathers didn't want a federal military. Instead, they wanted every state to have its own militia [1]. The interpretation that it means every private citizen can own a gun is modern not historic. It wasn't until the 2008 DC V Heller case that the right to firearms was actually established.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federalist_No._29

Absolutely incorrect. The state militias consisted of private citizens with their own arms who would organize when needed, not standing state armies with government issued arms.

Also, private gun ownership was the norm at the time.

Heller draws it's decision from historical reality and originalist philosophy

But remember, just like back in the founding, you can't own a cannon!

Just ignore all the privateer ships that were loaded with cannons.

> The state militias consisted of private citizens with their own arms who would organize when needed

The founders, in 1808, appropriated funding for arms to state militias. [1]. Previously the arming of militias was up to the individual states. Some would have chosen to just have private citizens bring their own arms. Others would have actually set aside a fund to bring those arms.

And that's blatantly apparent when you think about the wars fought after the revolution. Cannons had to come from somewhere and you'd not expect a private citizen to have procured one.

That was, in fact, one of the reasons George Washington disliked the idea of militias, because you'd be arming untrained and undisciplined citizens with weapons they'd never used before and expect them to somehow know how to operate them.

> To place any dependence on the Militia, is, assuredly, resting upon a broken staff. Men just dragged from the tender Scenes of domestic life; unaccustomed to the din of Arms; totally unacquainted with every kind of military skill, which being followed by a want of confidence in themselves, when opposed to Troops regularly trained, disciplined, and appointed, superior in knowledge and superior in Arms, makes them timid, and ready to fly from their own shadows ... if I was called upon to declare upon Oath, whether the Militia have been most serviceable or hurtful upon the whole, I should subscribe to the latter. -- George Washington

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militia_Act_of_1808

Washington had a good point in my opinion, but it was a strategic one, and one that that the authors of the 2nd amendment disagreed with.

The author is absolutely hated the idea of a standing army, and I think the Bill of Rights reflects this ideal over more practical concerns.

> you'd not expect a private citizen to have procured one

You should look up letters of marque and reprisal, where private citizens effectively owned entire warships.

> Heller draws it's decision from historical reality and originalist philosophy

Private gun ownership != the right to a private gun.

Of course. Private ownership itself is just explanation of the historical context, not proof that the right existed.

Having read Heller, the various drafts of the Bill of Rights, and some of the correspondence, I don't think anyone that has done the same can make an honest originalist argument against the private right.

In particular, I think the linguistic argument about militias relies on a neologistic definition that is particularly misleading.

People can make valid living constitution arguments against the second amendment all day and all night, but these seem particularly out of favor. I think this, more than anything else explains the Heller decision in 2008

Yup. For what it’s worth, I think Heller was spot on.

> Heller draws it's decision from historical reality and originalist philosophy

The "reality" in this sentence here is pretty solidly not accurate. The majority opinion in Heller asserted truths about the past that aren't born out by the historical record. Probably lifted straight from interest-group amicus briefs that agreed with what the majority was inclined to decide to begin with.

[EDIT] Whoops. I mean, that the above is often true in cases that cite history, even legal history, means it might still be true, but I was actually thinking of Bruen, where this happened to a degree that'd be comical if it weren't, you know, the Supreme Court.

I suppose even if it was meant that way (as an insurance against military coups), it wouldn't be of much use in this day and age anyway.

That's the differences of coup and martial law. Once he blocked the parliament, it became coup.

Definitely not legal. Because of this, it became coup not martial law.

> sounds like the National Assembly just needs to meet & vote to counter this

If the President is accusing "the country’s opposition of controlling the parliament, sympathizing with North Korea and paralyzing the government with anti-state activities," that vote will take place without the opposition.

(It's mindblowing they left this in their Constitution after the 80s.)

The leader of his own party reportedly called it unconstitutional and vowed to stop it, so I don't think his route to rigging a Parliamentary vote in his favour is an easy one.

> I don't think his route to rigging a Parliamentary vote in his favour is an easy one

The classic move is to block the legislature from assembling while one gets around to dissolving it.

Oh, I agree that via the use of force he can do what he likes, at least so long as that force is loyal to him and other forces aren't stronger.

It's just harder to create a veneer of the constitutional necessity of such a move when your own highest profile political allies apparently condemn it and pledge to "stop it with the people" instead of queuing up to rubber stamp it and do "this is a small problem with criminal elements in one party which is all resolved now" briefings to confused foreigners wondering who the real government of South Korea is.

Edit: reportedly the National Assembly has actually managed to hold a vote against it. Not sure how or what the constitutional quirks are, but that's probably going to make it considerably less likely the military unites behind the President...

This is looking stupider by the minute. You can't half ass a coup d'etat.

Yeah, feels like an act of desperation rather than a cunning plan. Didn't even get his own party on side, never mind influential foreign figures to recognise him as the legitimate leader, and it looks like troops who responded to his orders to attend Parliament didn't exactly follow them to the letter. Unanimous vote as well, so if anything it was any support he might have had in Parliament that was unable or unwilling to turn up.

The failed coup in Turkey comes to mind. It was a really strange one.

I thought the most recent coup in Turkey was actually a facade for the existing government to consolidate power? My understanding was that the ruling party just declared a coup took place then used that to round up a bunch of people

The list of countries with half-asses coup d'etat recently is growing very fast.

As a Brazilian, well, Bolsonaro is all over the news right now. Peru has had one recently too (it lasted for 6 hours or so). Going North, the US famously had one just some 4 years ago.

Yeah, you launch a half-assed coup d'etat, and the next thing you know you get arres-... er, re-elected legitimately.

Only in America.

We have the bigliest beer halls of all!

The standard constitutional remedy is to have martial law automatically expire after a few days (without being able to be imposed afterwards for a while, etc.) unless the parliament votes to confirm it. But apparently South Korea doesn’t have anything like that.

> standard constitutional remedy is to have martial law automatically expire after a few days (without being able to be imposed afterwards for a while, etc.) unless the parliament votes to confirm it

This is in practice useless. The time for action is while the usurper is conslidating power. After a few days, they've either won or lost.

Yeah, as russia has shown any treaties all the way up to constitutions are only worth something if all power parties agree to respect them. Otherwise just a wishful thinking or food for academic discussions.

Just Russia?

Does the legislature have to meet in that specific building for it to legally count as in session?

Or can they meet anywhere they choose?

A question from the other side of the world: if the opposition is controlling the parliament, isn't that the majority and isn't the opposition controlling the president?

> if the opposition is controlling the parliament, isn't that the majority and isn't the opposition controlling the president?

You're confusing prime ministers in parliamentary democracies, e.g. the UK with presidents [1].

[1] https://www.britannica.com/story/whats-the-difference-betwee...

I think the point is, the term “opposition” only really makes sense in a parliamentary system. In a Presidential system like the US, there officially speaking isn’t an “opposition”. (I don’t even think all parliamentary systems officially have an “opposition” status for the largest party/coalition outside government.) But journalists tend to impose the term on non-US presidential systems, when they wouldn’t do it to the US.

> In a Presidential system like the US, there officially speaking isn’t an “opposition”

True, there's a minority and majority.

> journalists tend to impose the term on non-US presidential systems

Didn't President Yoon call them the opposition? Or is that a liberal translation?

The point still stands, if you control the parliament, aren’t you the majority and the other side is the opposition? Or how is it defined who is the opposition?

The president is the executive alongside the ministers. The opposition is the other parties that have an opposite view on things.

In a presidential system the president’s party is the government and the other parties are the opposition. Doesn’t matter how many seats in parliament anyone has.

The opposition is whoever is not in power. Anyone complaining about being locked out is clearly not in power, making them the de facto oppposition party regardless of official labels.

> point still stands, if you control the parliament, aren’t you the majority and the other side is the opposition?

In a parliamentary democracy, the governing coalition and opposition are clearly delineated. In a presidential system, a legislature controlled by a party different from the president tends to be referred to as an opposition legislature, e.g. the House is currently in opposition to Biden.

https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20241203-south-korea-p...

> The entrance to the National Assembly has been sealed, and MPs have been barred from entering the building, according to Yonhap.

National Assembly has been suspended by the military so they will have trouble meeting.

> Following Yoon’s announcement, South Korea’s military proclaimed that parliament and other political gatherings that could cause “social confusion” would be suspended

Are they required to hold the vote within the parliament building itself?

They're apparently (according to BBC) inside the building now anyway and waiting for the speaker to arrive and call a vote. Also special forces are there and landed helicopters on the roof, intent unclear.

Edit: vote complete, declaration of martial law is voted down. Now what?

Impeachment? Is that a thing there?

I'm more worried about the immediate matter of tanks on the streets.

If the tanks politely go back where they came from, maybe parliament could consider tweaking the constitution to prevent blockading the assembly building next time.

Edit: "The South Korean military says it will maintain martial law until it is lifted by President Yoon Suk Yeol, despite the nation's parliament voting to block its enforcement". That's a bug. "the government must lift martial law" as a result of the vote, but the government is apparently the president?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impeachment_of_Park_Geun-hye so yes

Sorry for the slight tangent, but I noticed the "conict" typo in your quote. Selecting article 77 in the pdf you linked to selects everything but the "fl" in "conflict". How odd.

That's PDF ligatures for you.

Probably got turned into some strange ligature by the typesetting program.

conﬂict vs conflict

Does that mean the precautionary kind doesn't give the government any extra power?

According to the Martial Law Act, there's an extra power by the martial law commander to move the military as they want.

Some translations say "guarding martial law" instead of "precautionary": https://elaw.klri.re.kr/eng_mobile/viewer.do?hseq=45785&type... "Once guarding martial law is declared, the martial law commander shall have authority over the administrative and judicial matters concerning the military of the area where martial law is declared."

But this time it was the emergency one.

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