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Comment by MrMcCall | Hacker News Reader

The other way to avoid it is to just respect everyone at your table, like Guru Nanak and those like him who have trod the road to universal compassion, and just keep things as simple as possible.

Hierarchies are great for govt, militaries, and companies, but only when kept to a minimum. The US was successful in WWII because the commanders set the goals and then let their sub-leaders get on with their jobs, allowing for creative, adaptive improvisation. Korean Airlines' cultural hierarchies almost got them delisted from Canada's airspace.

Spiritual folks within their orgs each have different levels of development, but if someone believes they are "better" than another person, that's the ego.

An enlightened individual is kind and respectful to everyone. At the same time, they always bear the truth without regard to people's ego-bruises and supposed slights. Those are what they are and are solely that person's responsibility to level-up from.

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There's a larger % of the population that you might expect that have no capability for empathy, let alone anything higher

The structure is great for those people because then they can get their needs met without having to deal with ideas they do not understand like trust and mutual reciprocation or long-term relationships the structure is easy to exploit with no morals so we end up disproportionately rewarding these people

That's why you can't just expect everyone to be respectful and for it to work

I didn't say I expect anything from anyone, but we all have the choice, with the very rare exception for those that are developmentally disabled and incapable of rationally choosing.

For the vast majority of those of us who have the power to think and consult one's conscience, we can and do choose the course of our action. Over time, we can also choose to escape our ignorance and learn the ideals that facilitate humanity in our mostly mammalian body, and then choose to learn how to be better and then actualize being better.

Very few of us have anything but a lame-ass excuse, usually falling back on one's cultural upbringing to make excuses for our deliberate, if unthinking, choices.

The best "structure", as you put it, is to make empathy a major part of childhood education, teaching that we are all human beings, each differently endowed but worthy of respect to some degree. As well, we have to teach that we have to resist the inner urgings towards selfishness and ignorance in favor of willful action that will the benefit of the whole.

But, no, I do not agree that most people cannot learn such a moral framework, and the proof is the simple fact that we are all living in groups, none of us being completely self-sufficient for all our human survival needs, not to mention those things that bring us entertainment and relaxation.

> There's a larger % of the population that you might expect that have no capability for empathy, let alone anything higher

And another big % that purposefully surpress empathetic instincts because of other beliefs.

Willful ignorance and oppression of others have many causes, none of them anything less than an evil perversion of the life of compassion we should each be choosing to manifest.

Such evil is always worse under the guise of religion, because religion is ONLY supposed to lead us to greater compassion for all our neighbors, especially those who are on different paths. We are to light the way forward for others by our own selfless, loving, generous, and kind compassion for others.

A particularly tricky bit is that the Paradox of Tolerance requires us to "love" the oppressed differently than their oppressors, which may require what Holmes called "vigorous action" in the defense of the innocent. And it doesn't matter what the oppressor calls themself, because the beliefs and claims of the destructively self-deluded hypocrites carries no weight in the universe's court of truth, which is all there is.

Respect doesn't tell us who sits next to whom at the table, the order in which people should be introduced, etc. any more than astrology does.

Protocol is what is needed in an imperfect real world in which people do feel awkward and insecure during social events.

I understand what you mean, but the point of respect would be for this all games and pretense not to matter. I know, in the real world we can't just count on that sadly.

That’s great until you cross cultural boundaries. Different cultures interpret these things completely differently so, for officials who have to interact with many cultures. What I consider respectful is different to what you would. Protocols are used so people don’t accidentally offend each other by, say, refusing food when offered (or offering a gift when it’s not appropriate).

You might think “just have respect” but what seems innocuous to you might be the equivalent of spitting in someone’s face in a different culture.

You'd give the racist and the brain surgeon the same level of respect? Or would there be a hierarchy of respect?

What about racist brain surgeons?

Yes, indeed. We can only endeavor to level ourselves up (as both positive contribution and social example), and then educate those around us who are willing to open to learning.

FYI, the German military tended to promote “individual initiative” of the soliders more than the allied militaries did.

I don't doubt it, but I don't count it for sh_t because, using some words from the great Suzi/Eddie Izzard, they were in the service of "a mass-murdering f_ckhead."

Every culture has a moral compass, because each is a sum-total amalgam of its free-will-endowed human members, and some cultures just need to be stripped of their power to callously and cruelly oppress innocents.

The Abrahamic books do not mince words about oppressors. Life is meant to be joyous, free from stress, with enough for all of us, in a pristine environment purpose-built for our physiology. But we must choose that Path of Peace and Love, each of us. And, as always, the Paradox of Tolerance must be contemplated and honored. Love's dictate is that no one is compelled to help anyone, but no one should be permitted to harm innocents.

"Know your enemy." --RATM

Are you not mistaking the Nazi-era Wehrmacht for the post-WW2 Bundeswehr? The Bundeswehr promotes individual initiative and the right to refuse military service is guaranteed by the constitution (Grundgesetz Artikel 12a). I'm not aware of any such formal policy that existed during WW2.

> The other way to avoid it is to just respect everyone at your table, like Guru Nanak and those like him who have trod the road to universal compassion, and just keep things as simple as possible

Some people are not worthy of this

If you have me at a table with someone who volunteers at an orphanage and another who has ordered genocide, one of those people is getting more of my respect and kindness

There is nothing enlightened about treating both of these people as equivalent

Yes, there may be a baseline level of respect for someone being human, fundamental rights and freedoms

Most of the time when people talk about respect, they are talking about extra respect above the absolute baseline

I agree that what most people call respect falls far short of what is required by universal compassion. What Wisdom calls respect has to be doled out by the person such that it does not violate the Paradox of Tolerance.

This ability is called discernment, and is a given gift that must then be developed further within and by the journeyer on the Path of Love.

For those not deliberately evil-minded and -hearted -- for the merely confused and noncommittal -- respect for their being a human being with a mother, wants, and needs, successes and failures, is a necessary act of loving kindness for the student of love. It is indeed a primary purpose of the Path of Love for we are information processors who rely upon verbal teachings to absorb and communicate ideas.

Once we begin becoming embued with such a love, we are spurred on to help others choose the better path for both their and others' happinesss, due to our growing gratitude for the universe's blessings of Wisdom and the happiness accompanying it. Discernment then helps keep us from wasting too much time on the bitter, selfish fools of this troubled world.

Another perspective is that the evil-minded and -hearted people will not want to sit at the Guru's table, even if they were invited. They become allergic to such lovingkindness, for their inner master is loathe to let them be reminded of what they could be should they exercise their free will and instead choose the Way.

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