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Comment by InDubioProRubio | Hacker News Reader

That will be 5 $ more per butterstick, for the logistics of reusable porcelain butter packages.. which have to be collected, washed and shipped. Which makes it a rich people feel good status-symbol luxury, sadly.

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Your sticks of butter come wrapped in plastic?

I don't think I've ever seen anything other than wax paper or foil, with only tubs of butter, rather than sticks, in plastic.

Up until earlier this year, many "grease proof" papers (e.g. butter wrappers) were PFAS.

PFAS aren't plastics.

And removing them clearly didn't increase the price of sticks of butter by $5.

A lot of plastic containers use fluorine-treated plastic [1], resulting in the creation of PFAS. The fluorine is used to strengthen the plastic and make it less permeable.

> Since EPA released its investigation, we have learned the disturbing fact that the fluorination of plastic is commonly used to treat hundreds of millions of polyethylene and polypropylene containers each year ranging from packaged food and consumer products that individuals buy to larger containers used by retailers such as restaurants to even larger drums used by manufacturers to store and transport fluids.

[1] https://blogs.edf.org/health/2021/07/07/beyond-paper-pfas/

A lot of "butter" spreads are sold in plastic tubs.

Butter used to be packaged in wax paper, which was (then) biodegradable. The plastic packaging is about branding and shipping, not cost.

It still is.

Well maybe not at Whole Foods, I've never been in one, but at Walmart it's four wax-paper wrapped sticks in a cardboard box.

Do you know that it’s waxed paper, and not plasticized paper? Genuine question, since I imagine “wax” paper is either plasticized or using petroleum-based waxes.

Not arguing the general point, for which I agree, but isn't butter commonly sold in aluminum foil wrappers?

Or you know, supermarkets would purchase 50kg blocks of butter and fraction it, clients would then be responsible for bringing their own reusable containers.

No one will actually do that, except the few weirdos who think that it's a good idea.

Remember: "Reusable" containers also have an environmental cost. Each container will be used, on average, X times. Then it will break, or otherwise end its useful life, and end up in a landfill too.

Don't assume that a "reusable" container is better for the environment: My house is full of free, pristine, reusable water bottles that are gifts, souvenirs, ect. My kids go through about 2 reusable water bottles a year, each.

I’ve had the same steel water bottle for over 10 years. Just because you don’t reuse things well doesn’t mean it’s impossible.

I stress the word "free" here. Most of them were gifts.

See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42214319

What were the inputs like to manufacture the steel container?

Probably less than 3.650 plastic bottles, assuming he drinks one per day.

Wish there was a way to know

I mean, of course it's not perfect. But isn't 2 water bottles in a land fill orders of magnitude better than 300? Isn't the reduction of bulk trash the point? Why would the fact that a glass container can break make it not still a better alternative to 50 plastic ones?

> But isn't 2 water bottles in a land fill orders of magnitude better than 300?

I think you're making a lot more assumptions than you think:

For example, glass vs glass: My single-use glass container may be recyclable, but the fancy glass reusable one isn't.

Aluminum: Aluminum cans are highly recyclable. Is your metal reusable water bottle recyclable?

Plastic: Ooooh, I won't go there.

You’d still have to pay the employee who’d be responsible for cutting and weighing the butter for each customer, and taking payment for the butter (or however else that would work). Or build a machine that does it. Not sure how the cost for that would work out, or the machine’s ecological footprint in comparison.

Plus all of the food hygiene and logistical implications of handling products in bulk, multiplied by the 30,000 different products in a typical supermarket.

I don't know about the US, but in my country butter is packaged in waxed paper, which is fully biodegradable.

It wouldn’t be that different from how a lot of cheese is being handled where I live. Except they currently put the cuts into plastic wrappings (which are “sealed” by the price sticker) instead of customer-provided containers. On the other hand, for fruits we already do use nets brought by the customer, and the weighing happens at the checkout.

In my hometown in Italy you can ask to put your cheese or cold cuts from the counter in a container you provide.

I'm not sure this ends up as a net positive compared to the paper with plastic lining they provide tho, since you have to wash the container at some point.

> I'm not sure this ends up as a net positive compared to the paper with plastic lining they provide tho, since you have to wash the container at some point.

Unlike different kinds of plastic, water is 100% recyclable and doesn't come from nasty petrochemicals in the first place.

Water is, but detergent is not

>multiplied by the 30,000 different products in a typical supermarket

It's almost like we're going to have to reduce our consumption or something. Maybe we don't need 200 different kinds of cereal and 300 different kinds of coffee available every single day.

And due to the labor, it can only handle a low volume of goods with a high markup. When I go there, you end up waiting in line to be helped by the one or two people working that counter. Meanwhile, the cheaper, prepackaged foods can be picked up as needed.

My local supermarket chains already do that. It's called the Deli Counter. The cost is not a big deal.

Butter is, perhaps, a bit sticky for that, but my local co-op has various bulk grains and flour and beans and such that customers can bring their own containers for.

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