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Comment by bdangubic | Hacker News Reader

I think (outside of outliers) this is a common misconception. while your salary might be higher in the US we are paying a sh*tton of money for things that europeans generally do not, ESPECIALLY if you are a parent like myself.

I am meticulous about tracking finance and so far (my daughter is 11) I have spent $374k which if I lived in Europe would now be in my pocket. This isn’t total expenses, this is only expenses that I have to pay for here that I would not otherwise. I also have another decade+ of raising and schooling etc to pay for

Roughly another $50k per year on average I spend currently on other things that I would not be if I lived in Europe…

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As someone with a kid, I'm trying to figure out how. First off the average spend for a kid if we can believe reports is 250K and honestly, feels like there's outliers bringing that up. My parents most certainly spend nowhere near that on me.

But even for my kid, who lives a very middle class lifestyle, I don't see how I'm dump even half that into her and she's half your kid's age. I know for a fact that I have not spent that much. My healthcare spend has gone up 3K/year. everything involved in pregnancy up to birth was 8K. I pay for a private school which is than the daycare. I pay for extra activities. Even then I'm not at 100K and most of it is the privage school, I don't have to pay for, but wanted to to better accommodate my special needs kid when she was young. I'm not even doing that next year. I'm struggling to consider where I'd find another 150K+ to spend on her beyond mandated things like clothing. Are you talking college? I guess I'm lucky my state has a state scholarship and community college is free regardless. It's how I only paid 20K to get a bachelor's. I assume my kid will do the same whatever she picks.

my kid has been in daycare from the time she was 2 until time she was 6, that is $2,100/month. she started school at 6 and is now in 6th grade at $30k/year (sending a kid to public school amounts to child abuse unless you can't afford it if for nothing else than having to worry about ak-47's).

at 7 years old she started playing volleyball at a local club, $5.5k/year first 3 years, $12k this year. we are up to $217k. HI is my wife and daughter combined, on average $1.5k/year so let's split that, $750/month, we'll round this to $100k so we are up to $317k. The rest are summer camps...

I don't know if daycare is free in the EU, and I know that some higher education is, but I am confident that private school, summer camp and club sports are not.

You could argue that it would be possible to send your kid to public school safely in the EU, but it would also be possible to send your kid to public school safely in an affluent North American suburb.

It seems you have made lifestyle choices that are perfectly fine but that I would not expect to be subsidized in an egalitarian society, much less an individualistic one.

Doesn't matter if your overall profit is higher. Which it is unless you're a very bad programmer.

Did you put this on paper? this is why I saw it is a misconception, everyone is just talking but if you put it on paper and actually do the math... I earn in the low $800's per year and would probably make 3/5's of that if I was in Europe, the math doesn't work out that I am better off in the US. It is just that my wife doesn't want to move that I am still here :)

480k per year in Europe? That's totally crazy. Where? I have never seen anyone claiming to make more than cca 200k, maybe 300k around here.

that is because they slave on "W2's" - I have been contracting with 2005-ish... on a "W2" it'd be (A LOT) harder but probably doable if you find the right spot. EU has a TON of money for small business, especially if you live in not-so-rich places (balkans, etc...) so doing contracting or starting a small 5-6 people dev shop is not out of reach for most talented and business-savvy devs

Sure. That's very different from coasting at a FAANG though. And living in the Balkans is nothing like living in Bay Area, LA, NYC etc. I don't think it's comparable.

But of course - do what is best for you. If this is your situation and you like living in the Balkans, go for it. I love the place myself.

Overall though, I don't think this is the safe, easy, simple route. That's moving to the US and grinding some leetcode, not learning the basics of Balkan business culture and EU business regulations. I wouldn't recommend that to anyone who doesn't know very well what it takes - usually by going to a business school or having few years of business experience in EU - elsewhere doesn't count, it's much easier elsewhere.

(I have experience exactly with what you suggest, to be clear. I had to stop doing that and go back to a much simpler and less risky principal engineering / SW engineering management job, as the stress and unclear/anti-business regulations were killing me.)

I don't disagree with a single thing you wrote... I am still though sticking with my original comment that it is a big misconception that you are better off financially in US vs. EU (I won't mention non-financial things as that would be unfair and not-even-remotely-fair contest between EU and US) working in the US than EU. I think we focus on gross pay (in US people even talk salary BEFORE taxes which is absolute insanity, like "I make $300k - no you don't you make about 1/2 that depending on where you live, in EU when someone tells you then make $200k they mean that is how much money is deposited into their bank that year...) and not in terms of "real earnings" - very few people that make US > EU claims actually do some math...

Sorry but I have never heard about people's net pay. It's always gross. Everyone has their own combination of tax deductions and benefits, it makes zero sense to talk about net pay - everyone is gonna have something different. And from employer's side, I can't simply tell you what your wage will be in net - that's usually different month by month, depending on your family and housing situation, health/fitness benefits, education status etc. That's why business is so hard here - I had to maintain an army of accountants to do a small simple business...

only america has "04/15" - in every other normal place you talk about actual REAL money, not fictitious money you ain't ever going to see... there are no "deductions" to speak of or anything like that. benefits are federal, HI is taken care of etc etc... only america is all weird about all this (but it is ingenious as you discuss your salary as if you make twice what you do - makes every feel good about - "hey I make $300k" and you actually make $150-$180 depending on state/locality you are at...).

Americans have far higher net worths and disposable income after taxes and social transfers including healthcare according to the EU's own OECD statistics.

I know for a fact pre-tax pay is the main number employers discuss. Your sister is doing something wrong.

You would not make 3/5ths of 800k in the EU. If you are lucky - 30-50% of that, pre-tax.

You clearly haven't looked at living in the EU too seriously, evaluated the job market, run the numbers, etc. I have because I was evaluating this for my LDR. I make 1.2 here in the US (unusual circumstances; nominally 600); I'd make a maximum of 250-300 in the EU for a top offer for the same position.

I get taxed at 55% effective here in commie California but it wouldn't be much less in the EU, while my pay would crater. My fixed costs wouldn't be much different either. Food might be nicer though, and I'd be closer to my LDR. But the EU's long term economic prospects are terrible in the tech space. Insane regulatory overhead means that my company rarely even bothers with deploying new features there.

my sister lives in Europe and so does most of my family. they do not EVEN KNOW what their pre-tax pay is!!! when she interviews and does salary negotiations the number she gets is the number that will deposited into her bank account that will be at her disposal.

several years ago my sister needed a visa to go to UK and they actually asked for this - part of the paperwork was asking for her pre-tax earnings. it took her about a week to figure out where she could get this from...

I don't believe that. It's EU regulation to provide this information. It's featured prominently in all job related communication everywhere in EU.

Your sister simply doesn't care and might be leaving a lot of money on the table. This is not representative of EU people.

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