Standing desk might be as bad as sitting all day
sciencealert.com
sciencealert.com
Here is their recommendation:
> Sit to do computer work. Sit using a height-adjustable, downward titling keyboard tray for the best work posture, then every 20 minutes stand for 8 minutes AND MOVE for 2 minutes. The absolute time isn’t critical but about every 20-30 minutes take a posture break and stand and move for a couple of minutes. Simply standing is insufficient. Movement is important to get blood circulation through the muscles. And movement is FREE! Research shows that you don’t need to do vigorous exercise (e.g. jumping jacks) to get the benefits, just walking around is sufficient. So build in a pattern of creating greater movement variety in the workplace (e.g. walk to a printer, water fountain, stand for a meeting, take the stairs, walk around the floor, park a bit further away from the building each day).
Break my concentration EVERY 20-30 minutes to move around for at least 2 minutes? That's at least halving my productivity. It's a total non-starter. It's the sort of advice that everyone pays lip service to, but almost no one is actually able to follow.
Basically - movement isn't free
That's an interesting lifestyle choice, but don't be shocked if others refuse to follow along.
Sounds like an argument against rto to me...
Try not to involve your legs in any thought process. With enough training you should be able to take your concentration into the kitchen, the bathroom, the shower, etc.
I approximately never need to focus to the level that standing up and pacing a bit would evict state, let alone need to focus like that for for over a half hour at a time.
And I think if I was focusing like that, I'd probably just forget to take a break.
> That's at least halving my productivity.
Now, admittedly, standing up for a stretch does not break my flow. Neither does walking around my house or doing the dishes. Generally it's talking to another human that'll do it every time. Light exercise should be more than possible to work into your day once it becomes familiar and routine.
schedule a meeting once a week and we'll catch up. if you're stuck, send me an email and I'll get back to you when it won't interrupt my own work.
0 min: start working
10 min: refactored a few things, get a glas of water, look out of the window
40 min: started working on a particular though problem, somewhat stuck, get up and stretch a little while thinking
60 min: found a good solution to though problem, keep it in your head, goto kitchen get another glas of water
120 min: after an hour of uninterrupted flow the though problem is solved, stand up, get a cup of tea, think about whether it is really adequately solved
etc.
I program myself and found a change of perspective and bodily motion in the right spots can help concentration, not break it, especially in the long run. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. If you have a variable height desk, you can also alternate between sitting and standing, which can also help as you now have at least two different resting poses with slightly different kinds of strain.
And drinking more coffee helps a lot. You have to get up to make the coffee, then to pee it out. The caffiene in sufficuent quantity makes it hard to sit still. You talk faster so people think you're more productive too.
> -keep it in your head,
+write it down
It will be a break just because it needs a conscious effort. But presumably if you build a routine, a habit, it will work by itself. You will be able to continue thinking your deep thoughts, while your body will transpose itself to a treadmill, do some movements there and then transpose itself back.
The tricky part is how to build an automatic routine and how to trigger it every 20 minutes without breaking the concentration.
Whenever I do not type at the keyboard, but I think about what I should do, I stand up and walk around.
I actually think much better about the problem that I have to solve while walking than when sitting.
Like many people throughout time I do much of my best thinking while walking or exercising. To the point that to crack a hard problem is often easiest if I get up and go for a stroll.
This is even easier given that there is seldom only one problem to crack. The combination of switching tasks and moving about, getting the blood pumping, seeing new things, and breaking pattern is an incredibly reliable way to generate good ideas, solutions and approaches.
Obviously you should still walk and stretch every now and then, but no need to approach it like a Pomodoro timer of distraction.
Most relevant study I have found is that sitting harm (average sedentary bout lenght & all cause mortality) actually begins at ~10-11m, and increases from that point. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28892811/
"A marked increase in mortality risk was observed at ~10 min/bout; suggestive of a threshold effect."
What they're obviously missing is that when you're at a standing desk, the friction to engaging in some kind of movement is drastically decreased (unless you're talking about spinning).
While I stand at my desk, I frequently find myself pacing, jogging in place, stretching, etc. I don't have to first GET UP OUT OF A CHAIR.
I also take care to move constantly, flexing hips, squatting, twisting spine.
It's desk yoga.
That's one way to insult someone as a stranded whale.
That's a just-so story which is much more pseudoscience than the aquatic ape theory. Humans are shitty runners, we have a bipedal gait that isn't adapted to running.
Paleolithic evidence shows ancient humans were habitual swimmers and divers. (Throwing and swimming use the same muscles in homo sapiens.)
Homo sapiens isn't of course an "aquatic ape" (no such thing by definition), but that we always lived next to water and fished and dived for seafood is undeniable.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Semiaquatic_mammals
Nor it lists us in the semi-aquatic category:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semiaquatic
> Humans are nothing like chimpanzees physiologically.
I think the non-humans animals that are most like us physiologically are: chimps, bonobos and orangutans.
Saying that we are "nothing like chimps" is thus plain wrong.
Looks at chimp. Looks at whale. Looks at dolphin. Looks at human.
Scratches head like a confused ape.
We like chimps for their facial expressions, but their skeletons are nothing at all like a human skeleton.
It's nice to be able to get the height just right.
We don't talk about radical disruptive ideas enough these days.
What if we don't have to interact with computers from a stationary position at all? VR headsets are one direction that might help with this, but in my view there is another way. Decouple peripherals and computing units fully. You'd carry around with you a battery unit that will charge display and input units, and it wouldn't be carrying but maybe put on a strap on your arm, shoulder, back,etc.. (very lightweight). I wish I could draw this out and show you, but you would be able to sit, move around, even run. You can hold a display unit, but you can also have cheap display units on walls all over the office, house,etc.. and you'd attach sensors to the back of your arm that would sense finger movements for typing and controlling the mouse and view port.
Essentially, "monitors" would not be tied to one device, but whatever device is nearest to them, wirelessly. and 10-12" mobile monitors (like tablets but just the display,battery and wireless receiver board) that work in the same way would also be a thing. the actual computers would be in a static location.
Imagine just sitting at a desk, or walking up to a wall, running on a treadmill, or taking a walk outside and you can still do the same exact task, just as if you were sitting down in front of a laptop.
If it were that simple, someone would have done it, I get that. But we need to talk about ideas like this (I'm sure there are better ones).
Which I dearly would like to see, but the protocol and security implications make my head hurt.
And that's before you get to the possibility of the gym treadmill screen or coffee shop keyboard or whatever being a hostile device. Which they would easily be if people were going to use the system for something of high value as opposed to casting YouTube to the treadmill screen. Which may be a little bit of a data leak opportunity as it stands, but it's not quite a screencast of your banking account, complete with key log.
As far as technology though, Airplay is what macOS uses to project the video, and there are open source implementations out there that you could run on a raspberry pi. As far as wanting it to work everywhere, if Apple supported Chromecast it would probably work more places, since Google licenses that technology so it's already on a lot of TVs and projectors.
I'm not imagining using this in very many places other than my home and any office locations where I have wifi, but there are standards like wifi-direct where you wouldn't even need that.
I'm only transmitting video, the keyboard/mouse is connected to my device via Bluetooth, so the worst a malicious device could do is record video that I'm transmitting, which, if I don't want people to see the video I'm transmitting, I should not transmit it in the first place.
Lol, you tell me I'm looking for reasons it won't work (when I'm the one saying how cool it would be, just incredibly hard to do) and you're the one limiting the concept to a toy home office setup. Good one.
Dare to dream outside of your daily experience.
Apple started in a toy home office aka garage. I'm sure they won't mind the company.
1. Input accuracy, speed, and fatigue. Stick your keyboard to a wall and try standing next to it typing for an hour. Even if somehow gestures/sign-language are viable, your arms will get tired, and only a few people will power through the pain with the excuse that it's a form of exercise.
2. Motion sickness and physical safety. We make dedicated workspaces because we need to control external factors and have definite positions for things. A floating "window" isn't that different from an LCD on a pivoting arm, especially if you prefer to change the hat's on it rather than frequently relocate it.
3. We don't multitask nearly as well as we think we do.
2) Dedicated workspaces are fine, you're just not tied to one concept of a workspace. A park bench can be a dedicated work space, so can standing in front of walls, or a seat at a coffee shop. the ergonomics can be adapted accordingly.
3) Multi-tasking is irrelevant here, if I'm just watching a video for example, I can sit on a sofa, get up and walk around after a bit, go to the kitchen and make some food, go to my office and sit on an office chair,etc.. all the while I would be watching the movie. My posture and location is not tied down to the compute device, that would be the ideal goal.
We wouldn't need "smart" devices all that much with this approach either, "things" would interface with my I/O peripherals instead of having their own that requires my interaction. E.g.: imagine getting groceries and you'd navigate the isles and get information about products without a single thing in the store changing, you just have your peripherals interact with the environment better.
One other important piece you're missing is that the displays are "cellphone" aren't permanently paired. and the "cellphone" could be a computing device of any size. your displays would interface with the larger computer at stores or smaller computers when you go about your day in public (street lamps, directions, information, subway,etc..). instead of a smart thermostat with a touch screen for example, you'd just bring your display near a wall (and/or actual thermostat) and interface with it. flying? just bring up your lightweight display and have it interface with the plane's computer for entertainment and information. So, instead of "cellphone" think, "thin client" but with modern wireless+battery tech.
I always assumed it was also probably pretty good for my back and neck - I'd love to see a study on that.
I personally switched only for my posture, and it mostly fixed my issues with neck and back. I never thought it had any other benefits than that. Maybe burn a marginal few calories? So I wouldn't say they're as bad as sitting. At least for me, they're better
20*40*52/7700=5.4 kg/year
Surprisingly large. Did I mess something up?
You should invest in good chair and desk.
I had a standing desk at work and while I only used it for a couple hours a day, it helped GREATLY in erasing my chronic back pain.
The fact that they studied standing desks in particular is a bit odd, but it fits into the growing body of evidence showing that activity and fitness don't have nearly as big an impact on cardiovascular disease as diet does.
P.S.: Walking Desks are even better.
I was debating getting a treadmill of some sort but I think I am doing ok for now as I don’t stand much in one place anyway.
The best thing is to switch positions every now and then, put your standing desk in sitting mode and vice versa.
If you're a proper hacker, automate it. Make your desk swap stances every 30 minutes whether you like it or not :D
So having an option to switch position between sitting and standing during the day, like work standing for an hour then work sitting for next one is definetly still better than one or the other.
Also while I work standing I do see I move much more like moving weight from one side to the other where while sitting I can just stay in one position for much longer.
The fundamental conflict is one of movement vs. focus (and health vs. career sadly), and we have found a way to introduce significant posture changes while doing work. https://www.movably.com/
We, also unlike basically every other chair company sadly, also put this to an independent research group. Our protocol was a simple sit-stand transition every 3 minutes, and the seems to be the first study to show a chair preventing pain without interrupting productivity. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S00036...
I can’t imagine being on a treadmill or exercise bike for than length of time
It's like the Monty Hall problem, switching is always the better solution.
I think countries beyond the US have a much better prospect of doing this.
The most efficient way to incorporate exercise into your day is to make it part of your commute. Walking, biking, taking the train etc. - different modes are viable for different locations.
If you choose a job where this is not possible, you're just going to have to make it up some other way - two hours per week in a gym goes farther than most people think if you spend that time well.
In many cases at least one of these options is available to people but instead of taking it they whine that the job itself is too sedentary. I don't have a lot of sympathy, there are far worse jobs for the body than sitting in a chair (or standing stationary, your choice!) all day.
If truly none of these options are available to you in your current job - find a new one if you value your health. So many people have chosen a job for the money or prestige and just ignored this element completely. Those are unhappy people on account of their own choice.
When folks are working a production line the bosses have to coordinate it - but in an office there's more flexibility. And if someone in an office wants to skip their breaks to leave early, or have a larger number of shorter breaks, they generally have that freedom.
Is this not the case everywhere?
Most people can't change their commute. Pedestrian infrastructure is simply not there. Public transit doesn't exist in most places. Your option is to drive or drive or drive.
Get a new job that will require you to be in your chair in an office just like the last one.
In many cases... Nope. Get out of your bubble.
I’ve moved to biking everywhere and daily walks with the dogs, but still have 8 hours where I’m mostly sedentary
Why are you at a desk? Because you have to work 8 hours.
Why? Because your job requires it.
Why do you have that job? Because you need income to live.
Is a job the only way to have income to live? (See: FI).
Ultimately the root cause is not being in control of your time. It takes time, but once solved the downstream problems solve themselves. You can work (exert effort on goals you care about) in a way that prioritizes your health.
1. Taking walks during the day. I have figured out a lot of tricky design and even debugging questions by taking a walk. And even if I don't think about programming directly, it still clears my head. Splitting my day up with an hour (or longer) walk leaves me more effective than spending the same time in front of my computer. I usually work remotely, so often this involves walking to a cafe, doing some work there and walking back.
2. Taking walking meetings. I've found this works well for 1:1s, and it works reasonably well for large calls where I don't need to participate much. There are lots of meetings where it's too awkward or doesn't work at all, but converting even a small fraction of my meetings to walking meetings is a real improvement.
Of course, both of these assume a flexible culture where this does not make me look like a slacker and where I can take meetings in different ways. But I figure that's a minimum for having a healthy and productive work environment regardless!
I'm about to start leaving video on with the phone in my pocket as I walk.
And for 1:1s walking meetings can work well in person too :)
> Semi-recumbent stationary bike that fits under my standing desk.
> I've never been coordinated enough to get the hang of walking on the treadmill and typing, but pedaling slowly all day I can do! I've lost 45 lbs so far this year, and adding up the calorie estimate for each day (I've been tracking) and dividing by the 3500 calories people say are in a pound, about 20 of them have been from the bike! (The rest have been from hard work with a dietitian who helped me solve some longstanding issues, but that was more expensive.)
But also for me , if I’m at home, I take my dog for walks during the day and just make up the time later if needed. It breaks things up.
Or if I’m in the office I go for thinking walks to plan out what I’m doing
What I mean by "rethink the way we work" is that jobs like yours (and you may not agree with this) need to be broken up into smaller chunks through the day. So, you work for 2 hours, do something else for 2 hours, work a little more for 2 hours, and so on.
I work beside a lot of programmers and CAD designers in my industry and, in fact, am trying to move over to their side of the team (currently I am the guy who builds, tests and repairs the machines they create). One thing I feel is universally true is that, while you may be sitting at your desk for 8 hours, you are really only doing any actual work for about half the time, possibly less.
Here me out; sitting in front of a computer is tough on both the brain and body. When you are tethered to the desk and 90% of your job is cerebral, to an outsider that looks like a pretty easy day, but we know it's not. Those stress hormones build up fast and because you can't get up to work them off or give them some physical purpose, you sit tensed, bouncing a leg, shoulders up to the ears, etc etc. Your body suffers and really, the output for the day could have probably been done with only 4 hours of actual computer time, instead of 8. So, open up the opportunity for our programmers to move around by doing some other stuff. If no work tasks can be assigned, the programmer should just get those 2 on/2 off times to do what they think is best, because, as far as the employer is concerned, if the output each day remains the same, who cares? Nothing changes for them and you get to stop being a pressure cooker of cortisol.
Understandably, my idea needs some massaging, so don't take any of this as 'this is the way it must be to work.' Consider it a work in progress and your suggestions are welcome.
Do people really not understand that?
It allows me to have my muscle to work even when I’m standing still. It’s in fact pretty pleasant.
I also tried roller skates (detachable [1]) and it’s also pretty nice. More stable than the balance board but your legs are still more free than just standing.
[0] I use this one : https://www.decathlon.fr/p/planche-d-equilibre-fitness-bois/...
Wolfram said he didn't exercise much before age 40, but his wife convinced him to, and he's now resolved to not walk less than 10000 steps per day. He does his first few meetings of the day "in motion" whether walking or on a treadmill.
However, with a standing desk and split keyboard (apple trackpad in the middle), I personally feel I can work with some semblance of decent posture. When I work sitting down, especially for long periods of time, my posture degrades (tech neck, etc.) When standing up with a split keyboard, at least my posture is linear and my shoulders are back. From the study, apparently the improved posture benefits do not carry over to cardiovascular health benefits, but I would guess it is still beneficial. Very rarely in the office do I see people sitting with good posture (It is possible, but takes more conscience effort), but I will often see people standing with good "upright" posture.
tldr: Article mentions nothing about posture improvements. That is what I always thought improved the most moving from sitting to standing desks.
Standing is still not as comfortable as sitting, but I got used to it.
As I work, I move around a lot. Just happens naturally.
If I am on a video call, I don’t move around much, and I really feel the difference. I have friends that work remote, and are basically on video calls, all day. I couldn’t stand that.
I have an adjustable desk (hand-cranked), but never adjust it.
I have heard that’s the pattern with these $5,000 “smart” electric desks. People go up and down for a month, then settle on a constant height (not always standing), and there it stays; forever.
The benefits of standing, is for neck and back posture, I think most people agree.
Standing all day sucks, it's no secret, anyone who works retail will tell you that.
Standing still might be about as bad as sitting but a standing desk has completely transformed how much movement I get whilst on the desk, allowing me to generally avoid breaks to stretch and move as those things happen naturally.
Well duh, if you trade one sedentary all-day posture for another sedentary all-day posture it’s not likely to be of much benefit.
The point of standing desks is to vary posture during the day and being able to choose to stand or sit while continuing to work gives you one more way to achieve this. Mix with breaks and walks and it’s starting to look better than sitting on your ass all day anyway.
I try to stand for calls/remote meetings, I have a couple every day and it adds up to about 1h of standing / shifting my weight around and helps me stay focused. But not overdoing it is key - on days where I have more than a couple of meetings I’ll totally be sitting for some of them.
Static standing all day is horrible, that isn't news.
The only time I sit these days is if I'm extremely tired for some reason. I have been doing this for more than 10 years now though, and it took a while until it became easy.
No?