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That, and the falling booster ~really looks like a cigarette butt.
Proud to say I've found that asshole annoying since WAY before it was cool.
They even have a page about them: https://www.tesla.com/support/incentives
Customers: DARPA, DARPA, DOD/NASA, mass simulator (instead of the intended payload after the first three launches), Malaysia (the intended payload of the fourth flight).
"pre-arranged commitments by NASA to purchase several operational flights" is a subsidy, as were the milestone payments along the way.
I'm a huge SpaceX fan, but let's not pretend they could've done this alone. They very nearly went bankrupt on Falcon 1, per Musk - https://www.cnbc.com/2017/09/29/elon-musk-9-years-ago-spacex... - and had they needed to self-fund those launches/payloads entirely they would not have survived. It's a beautiful example of how powerful public/private partnerships can be.
We made money off https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troubled_Asset_Relief_Program, but it was 100% a subsidy.
I just take issue with pretending they aren't subsidies, and incorrect assertions NASA/government had little/nothing to do with their success.
I'm an enormous fan of SpaceX - you could probably have heard me scream a mile away when they caught the booster last month - and have a personal dislike for Musk since the Twitter acquisition and his hypocrisy there. Nothing in this thread from my end criticizes SpaceX for being subsidized. In fact, I'm all for it.
There is no indication that these commitments were underpriced by the government, so to call them subsidies is at best baseless misinformation.
No; both parties in the deal have successfully accomplished their respective roles repeatedly before. The airline isn't doing anything new; the oil company isn't doing anything new.
(And they both absolutely get subsidized!)
> There is no indication that these commitments were underpriced by the government...
They got paid for a launch of an untested platform and a student-built payload, regardless of success, in hopes it would result in a good tested platform. What else do you call it?
That's false.
https://www.nasa.gov/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/189228main_s... - start at page 34.
The first demonstration mission is paid milestone #13. If I'm adding it up correctly, about $200M paid out prior to that first demonstration flight.
SpaceX absolutely dominates the commercial launch market. No one forces companies from abroad to buy launches from SpaceX - only their reliability and lower prices.
For fully subsidized organizations that nevertheless cannot compete on the commercial market, see Roskosmos and Arianespace.
That is not actually such a big deal when you realize they are just ferrying fuel on a reusable rocket. They're also doing it well in advance of the mission. There is a massive logistics chain making it possible to buy fuel on your road trip, this is similar.
> That's a clear regression from the Saturn V.
Not exactly, as the fuel provided in orbit by these other missions will allow a much larger payload to reach the Moon's surface and return.
StarShip can already deliver a similar payload to orbit as Saturn V (though a bit less due to reusability) - it is the extra mass to the moon which requires the refuelling.
Amortized over the number of launches it takes to get a single moonshot.
> StarShip can already deliver a similar payload to orbit as Saturn V
But Saturn V's purpose was not getting things to orbit. We have plenty of rockets capable of getting to orbit. And given that satellites have differing needs when it comes to orbital trajectories, it's unclear whether we even need that capability. By analogy, we've had jumbo jets for decades, but most air routes are not flying on jumbo jets, because the demand isn't there.
Saturn V was completely destroyed by each launch with only the payload surviving. It's not exactly an apples to apples comparison when you compare # launches.
Those 10-15 launches of StarShip will be a lot cheaper than a single Saturn V launch because at the end you still have all the StarShips you launched and all you used was some methane and oxygen.
Minus the maintenance for the wear-and-tear of expending (ahem) astronomical amounts of energy to propel the largest rocket ever built into space and then return through atmospheric re-entry ten or more times. Just because you have built a machine that might, at scale, be more economical than an expendable rocket does not mean that the economics will actually materialize such that it ever makes sense to realize that scale, especially if you dectuple your expected operating costs.
The way rocket staging works - each stage delivers the next stage to a predefined orbit / trajectory or energy level. It is not Saturn V that went to the moon, it just lofted a payload (final stage) into orbit that could perform a TLI.
This was the final stage of the Saturn V rocket for TLI (123,000 kg): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-IVB
In orbit refuelling with StarShip is a major innovation, meaning that we don't need to separate payloads into parts and assemble them on orbit. Instead we can refuel a reusable boost stage.
Yet it was used to put Skylab in orbit.
In any case, a reusable rocket architecture is way ahead of the Apollo model, not a regression.
By that measure has humanity ever even been to space?
And we probably shouldn't be cheering on billionaires going all in on political campaigns (not that he's the first)
It is, after all, a direct violation of the principle that all political power should come through the popular vote, not back room deals. Politics should operate in plain sight. Always.
If you're going to give anyone credit, the thousands of SpaceX staff who keep this thing on the rails are who need some love.
Edit: so by the downvotes I would assume that people are happy to violate immigration laws, try to buy elections and completely pave over the achievements of the staff to be a billionaire simp? Enjoy your future under the boot.
Well, Trump aspires to be America's Putin, so that checks out...
Let’s just admit we are a terrible species and wish the cockroaches better luck.
No musk fan here. He is an idiot, but probably a useful one.
Basically there are better ways without making the sacrifices that have been and will be made.
The main thesis of The Selfish Gene is that evolution is best explained by a gene-centered model, rather than an organism or species model. I'm confused what that has to do with not being a perfectionist about Musk.
Musk is an egotistical megalomaniac. To even think of his ego in any positive light makes the problem with you.
Calling someone a pedophile because they wouldn't use his submarine is just an example.
> Calling someone a pedophile is just one example
This clearly outweighs his efforts to bring the electric vehicle, space, and humanoid robotics revolutions.
Who's praising the engineers who are grinding their souls to accomplish? It's not Musk accomplishing this. He just stuck up human with money. Like all.
And as an environmentalist in my spare time, why are we trying to get to some red rock of a planet than fixing the climate where we all live?
He's not contributing anything to the real matter yet we are all happy to bitch about climate change and then dish out praise when we allow someone to go and frack for oil. [0][1]
Sorry if it upsets you that I don't want to be under servitude of some egotistical nit. And, as well also sorry that yourself are too stuck in the fumes of fallacy of one who's causing more issues for this planet for his future for one you yourself will never reach.
[0] https://www.theverge.com/2024/8/12/24219183/elon-musk-donald...
[1] https://www.hartenergy.com/exclusives/elon-musk-calls-us-fra...
I always credit the SpaceX team for their accomplishments, fully aware they are successful despite Musk, not because of him. He’s good at getting attention and funding.
Their success in pulling such things off is an achievement but Musk has the real power to make good happen but like most, they just don't.
He just keeps continuing to stir the pot of evil. His internal politics are toxic.
And would say that anyone good at getting attention if you know how to polarise the people.
I mean at least for me personally it gave me excellent Internet access when I was on vacation in the middle of nowhere and didn't even have cell reception. And if there's a big disaster in my area I'm sure it will be excellent for maintaining communication.
Competition always drives down the price. It's not the first satellite in space. You could of had satellite internet prior. But again, like electric cars these companies have been blind and moronic for not moving in making it available for the people.
Google tried with their own fibre not as they're any better in merits.
I don't trust it. I'd rather be without than with but again however I do live in a country where it isn't as critical.
The needs of, and I don't rule out the positive of, I would just prefer it to managed other than himself but, or actually showed some professional qualities owning to it.
To me, the internet now is a commodity; I'm a nerd with colocated servers.
I'm not scared of it, I just don't like it. The person in charge, his agenda does not benefit anything positive To the folks.
And what if you could have compassion for Elon instead of imbalanaced judgement, to try to understand where do you think his drive may have come from? Could it have stemmed from immense stress and/or self-esteem issues that most, if not all of us have - whether we know we have them or not, whether they drove us to succeed to the same degree or not? Maybe you've been "fortunate" to not have to experience that or that that the way you coped with it led you on a different path than Elon's trajectory?
Also, with your ad hominem as the start of this message, does that make you any better than Elon for offhand calling someone a pedophile? I'd argue your judgement and emotional regulation ability is at minimum equal to his, but probably worse, but that you also have resentment and don't put much thought into things - you just have to impulsive write 3 short sentences to quell whatever amount of emotion that you couldn't instead just let pass you by - to "let go" of it, instead venting on HN in a drive-by comment.
P.S. In your profile you say you should stop being bothered by your karma score. I'd argue it's not a problem itself, however what you do need to - would benefit to work on - are emotional regulation practices, e.g. developing stress regulation skills for your body and mind, where there's a biofeedback loop: stressful thoughts cause stress in the body, stress-filled body causes stressful thoughts - so you have 2 avenues to address and learn to : your body and your mind. Note that as you begin to find practices that allow your body to calm that will allow space in your mind for old trauma-stresses to arise, old-unprocessed memories that you probably don't even realize are there and are still causing you stress and directing your behaviour will surface, and you will need to learn how to process those.
P.P.S. You can either cower by the mob, and coddle yourself, avoiding the possible flood of downvotes that can occur when you respond in threads about Elon Musk or other "hot topics" - attracting the gaze and often knee-jerk reaction of downvotes and replies by the ideological mob who despises Elon, to keep your "precious" karma score regulated and avoid it going down - a fear , or ideally you learn to regulate yourself and learn to discern if people actually replying to you with words have any valid logical counter-points to what you've written - or if you're willing to be so gracious and potentially willing to be embarrassed, you can spend time to explain yourself and counter what they've said - or perhaps learn something new; of which your reply just let us all know that your use of ad hominem tells us a lot about you, but really nothing serious to consider about Elon.
And no, I didn't write any of this for you, although I'd be grateful if any of it began to resonate with you - a blessing for you if your reactivity didn't cause you to recoil and avoid my words for long enough that you can maybe take a moment to focus on your breathe up to a 10 count or until you notice your body and notice that your stress has at least stabilized, if not begun to calm down, so then you can begin to read again, rinse and repeat - the practice and exercise first perhaps being noticing how just reading words are causing a physical reaction in your body; or perhaps your body is so locked up in stress that you aren't even able to notice the stress changes in your body, and so then I'd recommend a holistic health practice like 75-90 minute Bikram hot yoga classes to kick your ass and break through your hardened shell that's a disservice to you by blocking nuanced signals for you to discern with; the most subtle and nuanced of signals arguably being when you develop practices to the degree of having the ability to have such a still mind the the most subtle pieces of memory or strands of thought that haven't yet been processed are able to be felt, essentially the feeling of cognitive dissonance - perhaps only recognized as a queer or off feeling that you haven't yet even come to understand yet to label yet as cognitive dissonance, which then hopefully will then allow you to consciously direct your attention to discern to see if there is cognitive dissonance; this is what blocks most people's development, that off feeling instead of consciously examining it, they instead develop an avoidant coping mechanism.
And some evidence towards this idea, that even if Elon is a megalomaniac, it is far better for us - and he knows it is far better for him and society as a whole - that he isn't a no holes barred megalomaniac, that he won't make a deal with the devil - a far easier path to riches and maintaining so-called power - control - than if giving into the methods of honeypots and blackmail-extortion that catches a web of easily manipulable-weak individuals who must now toe the line of some invisible puppet masters, who often use providing children to be raped as their lure and temptation offered-provided: https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1854339192794251529 (of which we now know the Advertising Industrial Complex is a clear pathway for funding-rewarding those toeing the line as part of the censorship-suppression-narrative control apparatus that the globalist cabal has required ; and if anyone's reaction to anything I've written above is to ask me how tight my tinfoil hat is fitting, or use conspiracy theorist as a defamatory slur, examine your conscience and your heart deeper - for otherwise you are currently more than less easily manipulable by bad actors you want to fortify against.
Thanks for the opportunity to keep my mind busy - the excruciating pain I have to try to cope with today especially is near killing me; if you care to know why I'll spend so much time understanding something, it's not because I'm obsessed or a "fanboy" of Elon as I could preemptively predict could be your next flyby comment.
I'd recommend you feel more-better, connect to your body, so then you can think more-better.