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Comment by baxtr | Hacker News Reader

As an indie app developer this makes me really sad. We need reviews otherwise we won’t get enough downloads. Big companies can pay huge amounts on ads, we can’t and thus rely on positive reviews and ratings. Fact is that most users won’t rate unless asked.

If you really like an app give it a nice review.

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While I appreciate that need, as a user this is the worst way to get me to review your app. Especially because so many of them aren't tuned for paying any attention at all to what their users are doing before prompting them. I had one app recently prompt me for a review before I'd even completed their "first time tutorial" slide deck. Not only do I not know enough at that point in time to even review the app, but if I was so inclined to click through at that moment it would have been to leave a review complaining about the practice rather than saying anything substantive about the app's functionality. But even when they're not that bad, they're almost always popping up when I open the app (the moment when I'm specifically intending to do something that I'm now being interrupted) or in the middle of some workflow. It's the same annoying behavior that web pop-up folks used to do too.

Personally, I'd rather see you add a small UI element somewhere, or a banner that appears briefly but critically doesn't cover up any controls. If you absolutely MUST use a pop up, you know when the best time to do that is? After I've completed some in app purchase. If I'm spending money on your product, chances are I'm moderately satisfied with it and feeling pretty good about it at that moment. Or if you don't have in app purchases, unless you've made a "content browsing only" app, you probably have some workflows that have a definite end state. Prompt me then, at the end of me doing what I've come to your app to do. But I've never once given a review / stars to any app that has interrupted me in the middle of or at the start of doing something.

The nRF connect app (bluetooth debugging tool, mostly) asks for reviews at the bottom of the changelog for app updates, along with an explanation for why they don't do it inside the app itself. Very glad they handle it that way, and I don't think I've seen any other app that does.

That is a nice way to avoid a dark UX pattern, but very few people actually look at changelogs, so even in that case, a less technical app doing the same thing may be missing a lot of potential reviewers.

Granted, there are plenty of other places to slot a review link in where it could be just as effective.

> Especially because so many of them aren't tuned for paying any attention at all to what their users are doing before prompting them

I had Napper, a baby sleep tracker, ask me to rate the app at 3 am. Yes, I'm definitely going to give a thorough and well-thought review at 3 am.

But that's the thing, if it pops up a plea for ratings (or an ad or anything else unwanted and annoying), then I really, genuinely and honestly DON'T like the app.

Then don’t be annoying about them. I do the exact same thing that guy talked about. Dark patterns get explicit 1 stars

Unfortunately an annoying app will out compete a non-annoying app in terms of reviews. Even if a few people like GP 1-star it, it's still worth it since most will 5 star it.

This is the reality, but it's bad. How do we fix it? An App Store policy banning the practice? Global extensions like in web browsers that can use block lists to enable user to hide annoying elements automatically? De-weight reviews from users whose app install orginated from an ad click rather than organically to level the playing field?

The best way I've found is: stop using apps. If I'm using the phone, in either making a phone call or using Firefox. Apps might "solve some need", but it seems like all of them are more interested in data collection and selling that data to "their partners". We're better off throwing these black mirrors into the ocean.

> The best way I've found is: stop using apps.

This is what I'm doing as well. Apps have increasingly gotten more annoying in more ways - from unnecessary pop-up notifications (increased permission requests, policy updates, review pan-handling, etc), privacy issues, data hoarding and more. I also hate that almost all of the few remaining apps I do use are constantly pushing new versions into the app store, invariably with only a vaguely non-specific unchanging boilerplate sentence as a change log. Yet I never notice any new functionality or capabilities in the app and all-too-often updates only bring more ads, cross-promotion or other general enshittification (like just renaming or regrouping the same functionality in different ways - apparently for no reason other than to increase some internal aggregate 'usage metric' to hit a KPI). Although I don't know this, I assume app store algorithms must somehow (perhaps unintentionally) incentivize developers to constantly update their apps for little or no reason.

So, as a group, the long-term behavior of app developers has taught me to resist updating the few apps I do still have installed.

A way to fix the problem would be for the App Store to ban that practice _and_ itself nag the users for ratings, in the less annoying way; like, asking you to rate a list of apps you have been using a lot when you open the App Store, and also asking you to rate when you delete an app.

That would be a win for everyone.

Not when you open the app store.

The typical app store workflow for me is I visit the store to download a specific app I'd like to install. That app will then have to download and install while I wait.

That "while I wait" is an ideal time to ask me to rate other recently installed apps, or an app I haven't used in a while.

I came here wanting to say the same thing. It's a lot like Amazon emailing customers periodically to review recent purchases and making it really easy to do it. I pretty often do that and it works! It doesn't feel annoying either because it isn't in my way.

The key is catching the user when they aren't completing a specific task. People often check email to pass time, which is perfect for this.

Yes. Most of the major apps play this review game, and there's no way to compete if you don't play it too.

The major apps typically exploit selection bias to solicit 5-star reviews. They will wait until the user meets some criteria for "having a good experience" and show an app review prompt at that moment.

Then, having amassed thousands of 5-star reviews, they will turn up the threshold so that only a trickle of the most likely 5-star reviews keep on trickling in to negate any negative organic reviews.

There's a related practice of "pre-prompting" where the app first asks the user whether they are satisfied and only solicits a real app review from those who pass the screening question.

It's all quite shady and makes it hard to trust app reviews. But until the app stores solve this, app developers need to play the game.

if you make a good app don't pester me with popups while i'm using it. that's horrible UX, simple as.

we will, of our own accord without nagging.

It’s only a guess, but I don’t think data is on your side. I seriously doubt that appreciative users “will, of their own accord with your nagging” rate apps. I’d bet it’s less than 2% who do

The data for physical sales definitely show that prompting customers for a review increases the amount of positive reviews you get. It’s basically what rating sites like Trustpilot sells, along with a removal of all those “unrelated you bugged me so you get a 1” reviews, because those sites tend to be a little shady.

This is just a guess, but I’m not sure getting an e-mail asking for a rating a few days after a purchase is really as “get out of my face” inducing as the App pop ups. When I open an app to buy a ticket for public transportation, that is usually while I’m actively boarding the train/bus (because why would I do this in a timely manner?). That is the least likely moment I’ll respond well to review requests. I don’t think I’ve ever been tempted to leave a bad review over one of those emails, but I’m very often tempted to do so by app pop ups. If I’m not the only one then maybe the data would be interesting?

That being said. Unless the 1 star ragers spend time on their review it’s typically rather easy to challenge by the app creator at least in the Apple Store.

Yeah the comment reads as originating from a person who has never tried to sell something. You need to ask to get attention

> You need to ask to get attention

That’s fair, but if you push someone to review your app they’re going to rate it as they see fit, based on what’s important to them, not what the developer thinks is important. If the user feels strongly about a particular element - such as a pop up asking for a rating - they’re going to rate it based on that element. A developer is always free to change the app if they think it’s useful to appeal to that group of users, or ignore that group of users and accept that they don’t like the way you designed the app.

That’s fine, but don’t be upset when your cry for attention is met with a one star review. You’re putting your own needs before those of your users and we all understand why.

Can’t keep working to improve an app if nobody downloads it because nobody knows it exists because nobody ever leaves reviews because nobody reminded the user that reviews are important.

I also don’t like review popups but, excepting egregious examples, I try to be patient because it is beyond most developers’ control that they have to do this in order to maintain a standing in the marketplace.

Or as a knee-jerk reply from a kid when asked to do their homework or take out the garbage. :J

I read it as the tone of someone sick of advertising. I understand you need to sell your product (that I may even like) I just don’t give a fuck. When your UI pisses me me off enough, then you get a rating. I cannot stress this enough: It is not your customer’s job to evangelize your product, even if their literal life depends on its continued existence. Entrepreneurs/sales need to get over themselves.

Signed, Someone who worked in sales.

What is there to be sad about? You're getting the feedback you want: Don't beg for things, it's obnoxious and destroys whatever goodwill you have.

If the app is "clean" in terms of respecting users and privacy, I'm totally inclined to rate it when asked. I appreciate the resources required to make them.

You can also ask for reviews nicely without a popup (just show it on some confirmation screen), really no need to bother the user with it.

What makes me really sad is that you've identified a problem with capitalism but decide to push it onto your customers. It's true that most users won't rate unless asked, but that just means they don't want to and it's not your place to “make them”. It's not their fault that big companies exist that can pay huge amounts on ads.

Yeah I understand this and definitely do not retaliate against being asked for reviews. I find the usual modal pop-up for a review can be a bit jarring or appear at inopportune moments though, i wonder if not using modals would be better.

Being annoying and jarring is the point.

If u wanted to be less annoying do it after the user has a "win" on your app, after they use it for something useful or they had a fun interaction depending on the type of app.

Don't just interrupt me randomly before I do the thing I need

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