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Comment by immibis | Hacker News Reader

Apple maintains a fully closed platform, while Google appears open yet is closed in practice. Like how Windows bundled IE, meaning that alternative browsers were never used in practice - the EU made them add a browser selection page.

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> Google appears open yet is closed in practice

How is Android closed in practice?

For years, OEMs were made to install a number of Google apps onto the homescreen at predefined places. One of which is the Play Store. Amazon (for example) absolutely did not have this advantage, despite this kind of thing happening on non-Google hardware.

Or we can look at why Google's Play Store is allowed to auto-update apps without user interaction, and... that's it. That's the only store that's allowed to do that. And while the tech community might like being able to control which apps auto-update, everyone wants some apps to be allowed to update without user interaction.

Speaking of OEMs (and non-Google Android in general), Google has moved some functionality from base Android into Google Play Services so some apps won't work unless you get that installed.

This is easily seen to be false, but I see it repeated often. The functionality in Google Play Services requires a server. If you don't use Google services, you don't need Play Services. https://developers.google.com/android/reference/packages

Apparently you don't know enough about Android, a perfect example of this is eSIM, you simply couldn't use eSIM without Google Play Services.

That functionality was never available in phones with Google builds without Google Play Services, so it doesn't fit GGP's claim. The reason it's not in base AOSP out of the box is that it requires a server, and any carrier can build an implementation for downloading carrier profiles without Google Play Services and any OEM can build an LPA using https://source.android.com/docs/core/connect/esim-overview.

You don’t have GPS satellite data, “location services” without Google Play services. That means a gps lock takes minutes. This data could be stored on the phone, but it’s better for google if you fetch it from them when you need it.

Another example of something that was never in AOSP and so does not fit GGGGP's claim. You can still get your GPS location without Google Play Services exactly the same as you always could.

Sure, if apps choose to use those APIs you can still theoretically get a GPS fix. But tons of apps just use the Google Play Services APIs.

And Google heavily pushes them to, to the point of (when I last made an android app years ago) automatically adding its libraries to your project every time you open the project, then giving compiler warnings if you use the old ones.

the only thing you miss out on without google play services is the wifi/bluetooth location service

gps satellite data comes from a supl server, and supl support is built in to aosp.

now, unfortunately one of the most reliable supl data sources is google, but it's also trivial to run a proxy to mask where you're requesting the supl data from (neither the request nor payload vary)

> the only thing you miss out on without google play services is the wifi/bluetooth location service

not true. A standalone gps unit can use an almanac to get a gps lock, but supl suppplants using an almanac.

supl is a spec created by the telecom industry[1][2]. I don't think they want people to have good offline gps.

> it's also trivial to run a proxy to mask where you're requesting the supl data from

Lmao. It is definitely not trivial. I have an Android that is running lineage and microG, it's an endeavor for someone who likes tech.

Regardless, according to my understanding of the spec, the supl server authenticates your identity[3] and is already effectively tracking you, so using a proxy would only obfuscate your IP address. As such, I don't think IP alone is enough to maintain privacy from Google. You would need middleware to anonymize your device ID.

But really, I find it egregious that I can't choose to use simple gps almanac data and must instead either use a blind fix on my phone or give my data up to some random server. Standalone GPS units that use almanac data get a lock virtually instantly compared to my Note 10. I'm trying to create a disconnected smartphone for backpacking. It's garbage to have to burn battery needlessly.

[1] https://docs.broadcom.com/doc/1211168566155

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Mobile_Alliance

[3] pdf! page 13 https://www.openmobilealliance.org/release/SUPL/V2_0_6-20200...

eh. you can't provision the esim without google play services today. after the esim is provisioned you can put whatever firmware on the phone you like, and it will just work.

i'm running lineageos with no google play services on a verizon esim as my daily driver

That isn't true anymore, F-Droid for example auto-updates

Ah, this is true, but it's weird consider this issue (that I agree google might be overstepping in) in a lawsuit that doesn't involve an affected OEM.

> Amazon (for example) absolutely did not have this advantage

Google incentivized the OEMs to do that. Amazon could have incentivized OEMs to do that also, but the business plan that Amazon pursued did not involve third parties building their own Kindle devices.

> Or we can look at why Google's Play Store is allowed to auto-update apps without user interaction, and... that's it.

This has never been true for Android in general. This hasn't been true for phones that only ship with the Play Store since Android 12, which I credit Epic for.

Microsoft also “incentivized” OEMs to not install competing browsers by threatening to remove their OEM licensing. Didn’t Google do something similar?

No. They just threatened to remove access to the Play Store.

So, something similar then. OK, not as onerous as removing the whole OS, which they can’t do because Android uses an open license, but the next big thing. No play store, no Google services. May as well remove the OS.

> This has never been true for Android in general. This hasn't been true for phones that only ship with the Play Store since Android 12

I'm on Android 14 here, shipped with Play Store by default. It still auto-updates apps.

Exclusivity hasn't been true. eg F-droid can auto update apps.

Many of the fundamental apps on Android, and the Play store itself, can only be used under license. Android OSP does not contain many things that you would expect to be part of Android.

Also, most modern devices won't even let you flash your own OS, even a modified copy of Android. It's irrelevant if the source code is available if you can't actually run it anywhere. It's the TeVo case all over again.

SafetyNet’s successor and effectively forced hardware attestation make devices designed for consumption, not development.

I'm reading all the arguments below for why Google just appears open, while they aren't, and they are bullshit.

Go here, download and install the APK: https://f-droid.org/en/

You now have a third party app repository on your phone. And actually every Samsung device comes with their own app store installed in addition to Google Play. It's not perfect, Play having the privilege to automatically install updates, but good enough.

Also, AOSP is completely usable even without Google's apps or Play Services, and one proof of that is that Amazon forked it for their Kindle Fire.

The arguments from Apple fans are truly bizarre.

It is bizarre, because besides having F-Droid, you could just as well install APKs from Play Store without the Play Store using APKMirror, etc.

And Aurora is a thing.

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