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Comment by diggan | Hacker News Reader

I'm very happy to see the working class in the US is slowly waking up to the reality that they posses more power than they think, when they work together. It says it's their first strike since 1977, must have been pretty horrible conditions for them to strike after so long of not having to.

It's sad that the average person will be affected by the supply chain shock that will happen, but hopefully the corporations involved realize it's better to have happy workers than no business at all. Even more sad, many people will jump to blame the striking workers rather than the corporations...

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It says it's their first strike since 1977, must have been pretty horrible conditions for them to strike after so long of not having to.

Not quite. The union WANTS to keep the massive OT schedule because it enables their members to earn $150k+. The union contract has a relatively low base starting wage, limits on automation, and limits on hiring, basically ensuring the existing longshoremen have a high income.

I understand that they want to keep their incomes high. And they enable the rest of the economy to function, so they're definitely adding value. And the docks and shipping companies are turning tidy profits right now. But, the limits on automation and low base wages are a major red flag to me. Sure, keep the $150k+ income, but allow automation because we (the rest of the country) need efficient, competitive ports to play in the world economy.

Anyways, I don't have a solution. I'm just not thrilled with some of the anti-competitive demands the union is making. I'm all for good pay and benefits (in particular parity with west coast equivalents, who do earn more today), but they seem to be asking for even more than that.

> because we (the rest of the country) need efficient, competitive ports to play in the world economy.

Are you saying that the ports are currently not competitive enough to "play in the world economy"?

As far as I understand what's happening now, is that they've had agreement with the companies since 2018 about that the company cannot implement new automation without consulting the union (so not a ban on automation, just require a dialogue before implementing anything). The strike is happening because the companies want to relax the language around this, so they can implement whatever automation they want without having to talk to the union about it.

So currently the automation is already limited, meaning the ports aren't currently competitive in your mind?

My understanding is Chinese ports have a much higher level of automation than ours. Whether or not that translates into overall higher efficiency I do not know.

So you go from:

> allow automation because we (the rest of the country) need efficient, competitive ports to play in the world economy

to:

> Chinese ports have a much higher level of automation than ours. Whether or not that translates into overall higher efficiency I do not know.

How are you able to make the former argument if you don't actually know it'll help at all?

They want a total ban on automation of gates, trucks, and cranes. [1]

Gates? Come on, do we really need to pay somebody $150k+ to open/close a gate?

The same article implies the west coast ports apparently also have more automation than the east coast ports. And depending on who you believe (the union or a CA professor), the automation didn't hurt man/hours at the ports.

1- https://apnews.com/article/longshoremen-strike-pay-automatio...

Smart people who are also wealthy understand their best play is to take their money and nope out of the game entirely, essentially becoming gut bacteria to a healthy biome. What we’re seeing now is the logical and expected response to unchecked wealth accumulation and corporate exploitation of the past hundred years, which has rotted multiple systems (economic, political, environmental, social, financial) to the point they teeter on collapse.

Collective action of the masses against the elite is essentially an immune response of the organism against an infection.

If you’re a leader and you don’t want a strike, the cheapest solution is to just pay your workers well and enable them to live a healthy, thriving life for themselves. Workers that feel valued and respected are less likely to organize, and in turn less likely to strike or make unreasonable demands. Paying everyone a thriving wage and benefits is a hell of a lot cheaper than the cost of that anti-labor law firm and resulting lawsuits.

the union’s demand for a ban on automation seems quite absurd.

Particularly given that they walked away from talks this summer because of an autogate system that has been in use since 2008.

Surely if automated cranes is bad for employment, then having motorized cranes is too, and they should hire 10000x more people to move containers using muscle strength alone.

> the union’s demand for a ban on automation seems quite absurd.

I don't see where this is coming from? The only thing I find from the union is that there is an existing agreement since 2018 that any automation the companies want to be implemented, needs to be discussed with the union beforehand.

So there doesn't seem to be any "ban on automation" as far as I can tell, so wondering where you are getting this from?

https://apnews.com/article/port-strike-ila-dockworkers-begin...

>the alliance said it had increased its offer to 50% raises over six years, and it pledged to keep limits on automation in place from the old contract. The union wants a complete ban on automation. It wasn’t clear just how far apart both sides are

> The union wants a complete ban on automation

I only find media reports about "complete ban on automation". The only thing I can find from the union itself is "keep limits on automation in place", which was already in the existing agreement.

"Limits" is very different from "ban".

> Bottom line: the ILA does not support any kind of automation, including semi-automation. These companies cannot be trusted! They continue to sneak in automated programs and eliminate our clerical functions behind our backs. They better get ready for the biggest fight they’ve ever seen. We are done with them unilaterally implementing work processes and having zero respect for our members and their work functions.

https://ilaunion.org/letter-of-opposition-to-usmxs-misleadin...

retreating to an extreme is a fairly ineffective argument strategy.

The idea is to keep employed people, employed. They have that in the very front of their minds. Understand that and you can sort out behavior quickly.

The union, of course, supports people who are currently members of the union! Perfectly understandable.

Don’t much care how effective it is since I’m not negotiating

Not particularly extreme either, given the history of the ILA’s opposition to shipping containers and cranes

Yep. The blue collar workers of the US get demeaned and mocked at a large scale in the US. They are the functioning backbone of our country and without them everything stops.

They're asking for a reasonable salary and limits on automation. Seems reasonable on the surface.

It's striking to see this event juxtaposed with the college-class demanding student loan bailouts for their worthless degrees.

Longshoreman is not a typical blue collar job. You cannot just go out and become one today. It is a nepotistic profession where positions are passed within families and closely guarded from external competition. Go read The Box. It outlines all of this in the later chapters.

Limits on automation do not seem reasonable to me.

That tends to be the common reaction amongst SW developers who's jobs revolved around automating away other jobs or developing SW products that help employers monitor and squeeze more "efficiently" out of their workers, but wait util some form of automation or workplace surveillance threatens your own job, then you'll start to empathize.

Software developers’ jobs have been automated and outsourced for many decades. It just so happens that demand for more software has kept up.

Where will this explosive growth in SW keep coming from next? How many more music streaming apps does the market have room for? How many food delivery and ride sharing apps does the market have room for? How many more social networks and dating apps does the market have room for? How many more digital payment processors, stock and crypto trading platforms does the market have room for?

Just like with every job in history, the demand for SW jobs can't continue at the same high rate indefinitely, eventually you'll run out of things to digitize and monetize by moving to the internet/AppStore while also having too many candidates in the industry.

What then?

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