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Comment by ecshafer | Hacker News Reader

Timeshares / Vacation Clubs (they are basically the same thing) are massive scams. They use tricky math, high pressure sales tactics, etc. to push people who can't afford it into taking out massive loans to pay into contracts they can basically never get out of.

I went to a vacation club presentation for a bunch of free stuff once, it wasn't worth it. But its crazy the things they push onto you. They make up numbers on how expensive vacations are to pressure people into thinking they have a deal. Then they try and sell a huge package ($50k+) and to push people into a 20%+ APR loan. Then if you do sign, they stick monthly fees on top of it in perpetuity.

Its a bad idea, but I could see how people that don't have a sharp eye and a mathematical maturity might fall for it.

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Went to one once, one of the kids pooped. It was a bad one. The sales team wanted to keep going even as they enveloped by an incredibly thick stinky pungent hazardous stench. Real focus, reminded me of the movie quote “ABC always be closing.” Was interesting to be on the receiving end, a lot to study and not just the offers of “amazing places” but more so in terms of presentation and tactics. Leave your pocket book at home but everyone should experience one. (Oh yeah, didn’t sign of course, the rental locations were all on air bnb but cheaper and with none of the extra fees that they would have charged forever. Ha. Woops.)

> the rental locations were all on air bnb but cheaper and with none of the extra fees that they would have charged forever

Exactly! Came here to echo this. I have family that got roped into this arrangement and the annual maintenance fees (and other misc fees at every turn) coupled with the up-front cost is absolutely ridiculous when compared to just booking an AirBnB/VRBO/etc for a couple weeks.

Also agree on sitting through one with zero intention to sign, once. It's a unique experience, and I feel like most people not already doing sales/marketing professionally might learn something from it.

I’d be vary wary of going even if you have zero intention of being sucked in. They’re literally trained and adept at exactly those kinds of people - so don’t go unless you can sign over a durable power of attorney to someone offsite for the duration.

The ABC thing is very evident when you are on the end of it. Every excuse to keep you there and try to get you to sign, they have a response for it. No money? We have loans. Bad credit? Lets get a cosigner. Anything to keep you there or to sign.

Not sure about other cultures, but Americans lives in general I think would be a bit less stressful if there wasn't some weird aversion to just saying 'no' to things you don't want to do, rather than reaching for excuses. Is it seen as rude? I much prefer the directness of it on the receiving end, but maybe I'm weird.

It's actually the opposite. People don't really take no for an answer anymore, and that's doubly true of anyone trying to sell you stuff, so instead of saying "no/ will not", we try to justify why we "cannot/are physically unable to" to stop the onslaught.

Like canceling cable, home internet. It's not that we're using something else, not using it at all, don't want it. It's "we're moving/going to jail for 5 years/dying Thursday and thus cannot continue using this service"

I had a door to door salesman ask if I was racist after I told him I wasn't interested, as if to try to pressure me into proving I wasn't a racist by listening to his pitch/buying into whatever he was selling. It's gotten to the point where I have a video door bell so know when I can skip it all by not answering//pretending I'm not home.

What was he selling?

It's been a few years and I can't recall. Probably renting solar panels? That was a popular one for a while. Not that it matters, he could have been offering me free money. What matters is he didn't respect my right to say no. That's an extreme accusation to lob just to prevent the conversation from ending.

To qualify my previous comment, it's not that saying no is seen as rude, it's that salesmen are beyond rude if you try to say no. I have to hide in my home, pretend I'm renting/house sitting, etc because it's less hassle than opening the door and saying no.

The internet companies have mobile offerings now to push on you when you move. I thought while recently moving it would be a quick call to disconnect and still got a retention sales pitch...

If they don't take the polite "no", immediately reach for insults. People who intentionally annoy you don't deserve civility - they're not showing any themselves.

My personal favorites is along the lines of: "Are you hard of hearing, you stupid clown?" - no overly foul language and safe to use in most company.

Few will try selling stuff to someone hurling nothing but insults at them. There's really only one group of people this doesn't work on, and they're the bottom of the barrel trying to find victims on public transport and the like. If you figure out a way to reliably get rid of them, let me know!

Funnily enough, this reminds me of my Dad's approach years back. After he said no and they'd start again, he'd say "oh sorry, are ya deaf or dumb, boy?" in a way you couldn't tell if he was joking or not.

They'd usually be speechless or say 'neither', and he'd explain that he already said no, so they must either be hard of hearing or their brain's not processing it. Always caught them off guard. I don't remember if it was effective or not in getting them to go away, oddly enough.

I'm 6'4" and decently fit, but I wouldn't go around calling other men stupid clowns.

I worked in car sales for a decade and a decent 10%+ of salespeople IMO would get aggressive to your face over that.

Or do you only say that to the non criminal looking ones?

Indeed. Even if this worked 95% of the time, that 5% where it escalates things just isn't worth it IMO. Also, pissing people off that know where you live isn't a great idea.

It's basically WarGames. The only winning move is not to play. I don't answer the door when I'm certain it's a salesman. I don't make eye contact/respond to the ones that are setup outside of a store. Same with the ones setup in malls/stores (looking at you, Costco).

Read the room and maybe don't do it to that unhinged looking guy from the subway.

Personally I enjoy a bit of excitement, but most people don't want confrontation, which is why appearing confrontational before they're committed works for making them do a u-turn quickly.

I've had door-to-door salespeople go "I see you have a no-soliciting sign but ...". They don't get to finish that sentence before the door closes.

I ran a similar experiment many years ago, not with a timeshare but with a multi-level marketing scheme. The tactics they used were very similar. I kept saying no and they kept inventing new reasons for me to sign up. I finally got bored and said no, thanks, I'm done, and walked out--but even then they were trying new reasons on me until I got out the door.

A classic experience!

> I went to a vacation club presentation for a bunch of free stuff once, it wasn't worth it.

My wife and I signed up for a snorkel tour a few years ago, one of those "attend this 45 minute presentation and get your tour for half price!" deals.

We skipped the presentation and ended up being charged the full tour cost plus something extra, I think $25/person on a $200/person tour.

That has to be close to the best 50 bucks I ever spent.

I haven't tried this (yet), but I read that pointing out how much more cheaply one could get a timeshare on eBay gets you an immediate out from the negotiation process.

Timeshares on eBay are crazy cheap by comparison. A timeshare in Hawaii during prime season can be had for $50k or something like that, which sounds like a lot until you realize that the vacation clubs will sell that timeshare for, like, $500k.

I went to one of those timeshare presentations before just because the free prize for sitting through it was especially desirable.

My impression is that they were heavily targeting people who were bad at math. Every time I ran the numbers (I had a lot of opportunities while trapped in the room waiting for the prize counter to open) it just made no sense whatsoever. Beyond the amount you were overpaying for the apartment, the fees we so expensive that you could vacation on what you would have been paying in fees for a long time. The fees didn't even get you much, you still had to do all of the cleaning and a lot of the maintenance as they were not included. The fees only really covered exterior maintenance and mowing the lawns, and were about two or three orders of magnitude higher than they should be for those services if you assumed every unit in the complex was paying them 52 times a year.

Timeshares as a concept could in theory work, but the entire industry consists of grifters far more focused on getting rich than providing a service to their customers. It is ironic that the primary focus of the presentations is how expensive it would be to take a beach vacation every year, which is true, and how timeshares in concept could make this much more affordable, which is also true, but then they show you the numbers and the reality is completely opposite.

Out of curiosity: what kind of freebies are there during such presentations? (I am form France and we don't really have that concept here)

Free weekend vacation at Disney World, including admission to the parks. You actually stayed in one of the timeshare units they were trying to sell. The presentation was about 3 hours long, and mostly consisted of a high pressure sales pitch full of dubious claims. The salesguys were not impressed by the math.

After some negotiation (don’t settle for the first "prize" they offer you) I got a free flight and hotel to Orlando, FL and I used the time to visit the Air Force Missile Museum at Cape Canaveral (at the time, I had a badge that let me get on base to visit the museum).

You do need to be prepared for a hard sell. They are clearly making money otherwise they wouldn’t fly me around the country.

I think the prizes I've seen are generally in the range of $300-600 cash value. To get it you have to sit through the hardest and most annoying sales pitch imaginable. I did it once. I was never tempted even slightly to buy their scam, but it was so miserable to sit through that it's not something I'd ever do again.

They usually offer heavily discounted stays at hotels in prime locations, free cruises, and other vacation-y things.

They get them in bulk so they’re often not all that great in value.

However if your time isn’t worth $50/hr or more (as in you’re a college student, etc) and you’re strong willed it can be worth it. Maybe.

I don't think scam is the right word. Timeshare sales may be predatory, but they're not fraudulent.

Calling something a scam can just mean they profit off highly immoral behavior or are inherently deceptive. Loan sharks are scams. Pyramid schemes were scams, even when they weren't illegal.

It's wild that "predatory" doesn't sound at least as bad as "fraudulent". Customers aren't prey just as much as they're not people to be lied to!

Scam is more general than outright fraud. I would say they mislead you about the financials enough to count.

I've never seen a single timeshare that makes sense in terms of cost to value ratio. There's always a more flexible/cheaper/profitable way to do whatever it is you're trying to do than a timeshare, unless of course you're the one selling it. Very fair to call it a scam.

They’re certainly scammy and overpriced, but probably still a better deal than owning a full vacation home that sits empty most of the year….

Yes but when most won’t let your heirs get out of the contract even that’s the problem. In principle they make sense, Disneys for example has got to be the least scammy of them.

Checked a little bit Disney. Picking a flexible option for a large family:

From $350 to $1,200 per month for a 10-year loan with a 10% down payment = $144,117

+ the annual fees.

Oh well...

"Ability to finance through our in house financing with no credit check" errrrm.

"A groundbreaking non-credit check model for financing DVC loans. No credit check, no debt-to-income ratios, simply financed based on the value of your purchase."

Though if you purchase from the secondary market ( = people reselling it), it gets cheap enough that it becomes interesting.

Resell is the real value, but you need to make sure you understand the limitations to benefits as only people that have bought enough points directly get access to certain benefits such as lounges.

And really the whole thing only makes sense if you pay upfront without a loan.

I've priced it out a few times and for me it doesn't make sense despite staying at WDW ~ 4+ weeks a year.

But when compared to other timeshares, it's not a total lock in and Disney has apparently started buying back contracts if you wanted out.

Thank you!

Also I've never noticed the high pressure sales tactics from DVC. It's usually "if you want to hear about DVC go talk to that guy with the blazer".

I doubt it. You have the loan interest, annual service fees, and fact that you don’t have a sellable asset, at least for anything like what you paid for it. An empty vacation home is still an appreciating asset. Not a good investment in my circumstances but still better than a timeshare.

What is most amazing is that there is an entire industry of getting people out of timeshares. It's not cheap either. People are willing to pay large sums and take big losses for millstone removal. Timeshare companies pay a lot for every single successful sign up, so they are not willing to let them go without a fight.

Some timeshare companies have their own buyback / abandonment programs in response to the scammy exit companies:

HGVC: https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/hgvcs-deed-back-process.35...

Hyatt: https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/hyatt-now-has-a-buy-back-p...

Of course, these are not well advertised. And it contradicts the sales pitch of the timeshare maintaining / increasing in value if you are simply giving it back for free.

In a “Vacation club” you own a bag of “points” that you can use to book a unit at a resort. You are not guaranteed that units will be available, nor are you guaranteed a price (i.e. how many points you’ll have to use). You will have to pay for points every year no matter what.

True “shared ownership of a single unit at a resort” is far less common these days.

Not quite. You can sell the vacation home, you can (usually) rent it out.

It’s your property; within zoning restrictions, you can do whatever you want with it.

Not true with a timeshare.

Yes, you can but people that can afford vacation homes often let them sit empty and lose a lot of money because they don’t want anyone messing with it- it is expensive, and loses a ton of money but they can afford it.

> you can (usually) rent it out.

Only if you're lucky enough to own it in a place that hasn't outlawed AirBNB rentals yet.

You didn't hear it from me but the scheme is: an individual or group of investors will buy several properties to AirBNB in a moderately-popular vacation spot. Typically someplace fairly rural and off the beaten path. But desirable enough for photos that might trend briefly on pinterest. Then they (rather covertly) drum up local support for banning AirBNBs, while being careful to make sure their existing rentals are grandfathered in. Now their investments have a moat and they can charge whatever they want for them, especially if there are no hotels or resorts anywhere nearby.

That seems like a risky ploy. Guaranteeing that the existing AirBNBs get grandfathered in is far from certain. Then again, I've seen plenty of AirBNBs that just ignore the law so maybe it would be fine anyway. I once stayed in one that had explicit instructions on how to respond if someone asked you what you were doing at the house, which fake names to use and everything. Felt incredibly sketchy, but it was also about a third of the price of the cheapest hotel room in the area and didn't have cleaning fees or extensive checkout cleaning bullshit so that wasn't unexpected. Was a great location too.

You can rent out timeshares on Redweek. I've never used the service but it's often recommended to timeshare owners who are unable to stay in their timeshare properties.

> but probably still a better deal than owning a full vacation home that sits empty most of the year

If you can walk away: then 100% yes. I've considered a timeshare at a ski resort during the popular school vacation week.

The problem is that often you can't walk away. IE, with a vacation home, you can sell it; or otherwise default on the mortgage / taxes. With a timeshare, that's harder.

Personally, I just stay in hotels. So much easier, and the hotel bill is cheaper than whatever monthly payment the timeshare / vacation home is.

Also that sort of specific time is an issue for this type of arrangement. Because large share of participants would want the same time. Which unless they share the places during stay...

In the end just buying it piece meal is most likely best option.

That one week is super popular, all the other weeks are dirt cheap

> but probably still a better deal than owning a full vacation home that sits empty most of the year

Timeshares give up a lot of the advantages of just owning a vacation home, without many advantages other than price.

You have even less control of the property than a coop/condo, you don't get the financial incentive of possible real estate appreciation, there is no real liquid open market for resale.. etc.

Time shares are like a casino where the house always wins. They control the costs/fees the same way a casino controls the odds/payouts. They are probably less regulated than a casino too.

The other advantage to a proper vacation home is.. if its a beach / ski / whatever place whatever, you leave all your gear there, changes of clothes, etc.. not hauling stuff.

Not really. They are cheaper in nominal dollar terms (capital, annual costs, etc) but you are typically paying multiples of that intrinsic value of the property (e.g. 2 weeks $100K up front, $5k year, but for a property that might be $1m not $2.4m and definitely doesn’t cost $120k a year to maintain) plus you get no appreciation upside, no tax benefits etc…

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