Timeshare owner? The Mexican drug cartels want you
krebsonsecurity.com
krebsonsecurity.com
[1]: https://moneywise.com/investing/real-estate/why-buying-a-tim...
It's so bad, I bet some of you can guess which state I live in.
I've always taken the philosophy of putting the money in my piggy bank with no cost and obligation. Given certain circumstances, could investing in real estate been a good deal? Almost certainly. But not without risk or future obligation.
Sharing informally between friends and family when people have vacation properties in desirable locations works better but the barriers to entry are really high.
I do use my brother's second home up in Maine and that works pretty well.
Only TS I recall unloading was the one in Waikiki that was sold to another corporation. Weeks went poof, but so did the fees.
SF bay radio has lots of "get rid of your timeshare" ads.
FL: NY's graveyard.
https://www.redweek.com/posting/R1228603
The relationship is perverse. You cannot simply leave, so there is zero reason for the timeshare company not to bleed you dry in fees. You can sell your share for $0 or even pay someone to take it, but the management company still gets their due. They are not like a landlord who would ever have to contend with an empty unit if they get too uppity.
> Here is an example as to why: $0 to buy, maint fee $1076
Prices can also be less than 0 USD.
Such negative prices do occur in an economy, for example to get free from obligations that accompany the object, which is the case here.
You can also do this if it's legal, but the court might not be favourable to you.
Yes. They will sue you in court. Then, when you don't answer and/or attempt to represent yourself, you will end up paying the default judgement. A judge isn't going to nullify a contract on their own. You have to explain to them why the contract is illegal, which is not as easy as everyone seems to think. That is what lawyers are paid to do.
I think there is a difference between something that you dont know is a bad deal because it depends on future events (real estate market shifts or whatever) vs something that is a bad deal because you were mislead or didn't understand the contract.
If you take a risk and it doesn't work out - that is life. However that is a little different from the timeshare case, which seems less about risk and more about tricking people.
It shouldn't be possible to sign a contract that binds you to arbitrary amounts of future fees. When buying a property, you shouldn't be locked into doing whatever maintenance the co-property fancies unless you at least own a voting stake in that co-property. (And even then, only within reasonable limits.)
This is the same mentality that somehow sees student loans with >10% interest rate as anything but a symptom of a disfunctional economy.
At the very least, for cases like these, the government should tell scammers creating those constracts "You're free to put that ink on paper, but we're not going to use our monopoly on legitimate violence to enforce it".
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2024/sep/22/affordable-sha...
In the US? Cable TV? Cell phone service? Restaurant bill?
However, this amount is almost always stated in the menu, so it isn't arbitrary. In fact, in each of the above cases, the amount you pay is almost never arbitrary, but based on usage or a preset price.
Especially since all of the above listed things, but especially restaurants, have stated prices and often a means of negotiating them down or being entirely un-obligated if the providing party fails too severely.
And since, though not fully related, a restaurant can choose not to accept credit cards for instance, but there's often an obligation to state that clearly and visibly somewhere obvious beforehand, and always (in the US) an obligation to accept cash for debts owed in this manner.
There are no end of issues with leasehold properties, but there is at least a way out if you decide you can't deal with the maintenance fees attached. You'll probably end up with a terrible credit record for defaulting on your mortgage, but at least you can get out.
You'd have a share of the claim on the value of the land.
Presumably everyone voted to tear it down because the building costs more to maintain as-is, than to tear down and rebuild.
It is also possible the condo voted to tear down the building and build new - if you owned the condo before you will have one again in 2 years, but you are required to live elsewhere in the mean time. (Million dollar condos in Iowa implies you can afford a second house/apartment, while in San Francisco it would not)
Generally, condo owners have an undivided interest in the land on which the property is built.
Perhaps AirBnB should focus on timeshares instead?
The timeshare maintenance fees are the entire cost of ownership.
With the exception of a few top end timeshares, the residual value is not more than 0.
The whole time we were hounded by salesmen who thought it was her step mother and not some 18 year olds sipping beers at the pool, they constantly tried to sell us more timeshares we could never afford, we could barely make our way there!
I'm amazed that up until today I still learn things that make me think "ohh that one is real actually". It started in 2013 when while on a business trip I saw an actual Shake Weight on sale in a supermarket. Now goes the timeshare episode: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CFHzL0Q6sXg
1) Anything that involves predictions of future expenses and profits is not certain and depends heavily on your understanding of the domain, it's not a direct consequence of the contract itself. And salesmen will surely fill any gaps you have with the most optimistic assumptions.
2) The hardest problems aren't mentioned in the contract at all. E.g. a somewhat reasonable assumption is that if you don't like your timeshare you can sell quickly by lowering the price. So your losses are capped by the purchase price plus service charges in between -- that IS normally the case with purchased assets. However here you can't even sell it for $1 after buying it for $10000 and it's not immediately obvious. Another problem mentioned here in comments is that despite the fees being $200 per month in the contract real bills turned out to be closer to $2000, that's also hard to foresee.
I have some thoughts regarding the principles in such cases but really curious to know other ideas here.
Commitments, in general, are also just something to be wary of. Whenever I've considered buying a small urban property to complement my rural house, I lie down and contemplate this thing called hotels as an alternative--which are a heck of a lot more flexible in many ways.
Maybe new construction makes more sense but I've been told probably not even in that case in this area of the country.
Just never do any decisions while on the phone, it's a simple and effective rule.
Email, text, phone call, etc, I will follow up with people I know on a separate channel.
That's just for requests, of course I'd chat with people I know. But there are vanishingly small reasons for anyone to need my information, so any request is cause for pause.
Money is a hard no. Sorry Prince of Nairobi, you'll have to meet me in person to resolve your financial woes.
Cold caller: Hi. Would you like to save money on your long distance bills?
Me: No.
Cold caller: Ummmmm. Ohhh Kay...
Me: Bye
Took them out of their opening book in one move.
Check and mate.
I just tell them "We're a Linux household, no interest in windows" and slam the door. I think the look of bewilderment is worth it.
Basically, his family and about 5 or 6 other families formed an LLC, bought a property under the LLC and then basically meet once or twice a year to divvy up who's going to use the unit and when. They split the property taxes evenly and then split the upkeep/maintenance costs proportionately relative to how much time each member spends at the property. There's no corporate overlord involved, just a split between longtime friends. Originally, there was one more family involved, and when they wanted out, the group just bought back the family's "shares" in the LLC at the current valuation of the property. My friend said there was no bad blood, everything was by the books, nothing shady.
If things were done this way, all good. But when you get "Always Be Closing" scam artists on the case, well, things just tend to go south.
I've thought of making a portal connecting people like this before, especially digital nomads.
Find a group of DNs who like the same countries as you (think a circuit), pool money to buy property in the 3 or 4 countries, then just hop over.
The equity part is a good point. I think the math can work out so that it’s similar to the existing buy vs rent issue people have for a main house.
At some point it was done and I got my discounted theme park tickets or whatever.
But I can easily see how the high pressure sales process works on people. They have a bag full of manipulative tricks.
Needless to say she liked branded bags and stuff.
The more you think you're immune, the easier it is to influence you.
I took it to heart and consume extremely little media with ads, because they are so insidious.
You've just paid about $10K for your ONE Disney vacation for your family of four. For just a little bit more, you could come to Disney as many times as you'd like, stay in your own modern condo and and have park perks. It essentially "pays for itself" if you take two or more full Disney vacations each year.
The sales pitch for any timeshare is similar. For slightly more than the cost of 1 trip, you could have 2+ trips (just pay for airfare!).
My aunt used to do this. Fit the profile of a mark - retired school employee from the northeast visiting Florida. She'd go on the hotel retreat or get a nice meal in return for listening to their pitch. Never budged on the high-pressure sales tactics.
[1] https://web.archive.org/web/20230216090211/https://ecurrency...
https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/data-visualizations/data-spo...
1) Stranger approaches you
2) They tell you some things
3) They ask for money
That process looks like a legitimate cold-calling salesman, but you can treat them the same way and not miss out. After step 2), assume everything they said is possibly a lie and go find the actual person/organization you already know and trust and contact them yourself to do whatever it is. If it's not somebody you already trust, as in this case, then abort.
1. Claim of authority (timeshare purchase agent in this case) 2. Call to action (send me just a bit of money to sell your timeshare) 3. Sense of urgency (buyer will go with someone else if you don't act now)
You'd be surprised how often all three of these are present in a phishing attack of any variety.
Sense of urgency - limited time offer!
Social proof - everyone else is doing it!
Call to authority - #1 doctor recommended!
For scammers, the way I think about it… there is no choice but to be exceptional at the sales process and understanding what drives people, because there is no product. It doesn’t necessarily indicate someone who is good at sales is a scammer, but seeing these tactics always shifts me into a sceptical mode.
Another example I experienced was a door-to-door salesman who say your home has been identified by the government to be eligible for a heavily discounted air conditioner installation. Our company is authorized to provide that. There's limited funding available so buy quick to avoid missing out. So it ticks all your boxes but it wasn't a scam and I did buy it and it really was a great deal. BUT I didn't trust a word the salesman said. I checked with the government myself, found their company from the list of authorized installers, and called them back through that channel to order it. That's that part people keep getting wrong. They don't go through another channel to re-contact them.
OTOH I'm surprised they pulled this scam. A friend of a friend lost his vacation home in Mexico to the cartel and there wasn't this much fanfare around it.
https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/diamond-owners-both-deceas...
More likely there is a huge exit fee (that the "owner" could pay at any time to "give" the timeshare back to the operator) which would be extracted from the estate.
I have no idea what happens with the actual physical location but at least from the beneficiary’s perspective it seemed fine to just ignore it.
In general, I've seen lots of 'victim blaming' with these sorts of scams. I mean, I do understand that it's easy to sit there and think 'I understand sending money the first time, but how do you still fall for it the 6th time they ask you to send more money?'. But I think it's important to remember that victims are often older or new to the country*. These scams are designed and refined to make you feel trapped.
* I'm aware the OP involves a Canadian couple and the NYT story involves an American couple. I don't think the direct country matters. Most of these scams are all about scaring and isolating someone.
NYT link - https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/12/podcasts/the-daily/scam-c...
Also, there are psychological biases at play too, regardless of whether you are older or newer to the country. One of key bias in the engine that runs scams and cons is that, once you have done something for someone, you are more likely to keep doing things for them. Even knowing this does not really inoculate you to that effect.
Ebay is full of timeshare listings for next to nothing (if you don't consider even paying the annual fees isn't worth it in most cases).
Years back my GF got roped into a timeshare presentation because she wanted free nights in a hotel room. After gently scolding her I printed off pages of Ebay timeshare listings and went to the presentation with her. What a high pressure scam. Anyway, we stayed the required time and when the guy took us off to "close the deal" I whipped the listings out of my pocket and said "Look at this! I can get a better deal on a better resort for $1!". The poor salesman just stood there with his mouth opened then finally said they would have our complimentary tickets at the desk thanks for attending.
Immediately upon walking out and got to a local restaurant, my wife and I looked at each other and knew we made a mistake. We ended up looking up how to give notice for the recension and was able to execute it (even though their office was closed for the weekend; it was a good thing I've written and executed business contracts before). (For those curious, you state that you are giving notice of recension for the new property; and then you send it in at least three different ways in accordance to the contract, and get paper trail for each of those ways to prove that you sent them).
It's how I knew about how people get trapped into this through property laws that normally protect property owners.
Since then, I've let myself get impolite at timeshare salesmen. The high pressure sales start at those tables, even before you get invited for the pitch. They abuse the tendency for civil people to be polite and redirect civility to continue the pitch. (And the slickest of them will guilt trip you on being nasty to explain yourself ... at which they can keep pitching ...)
We get free vacations by sitting through timeshare presentations. The trick is to get the timeframe in writing before you go. And to only tell them your name, and repeating the phrase, "we will not sign any contract or agreement."
Literally say nothing else.
We've been to Cancun, Hawaii, Minnesota, and Colorado for weeks for free doing this.
You really have to be selective, and read the fine print, though. Often they try to make you pay fees for the free room, and the fees almost equal the cost of the room. Read everything, and be sure you can say no to people before you even think about doing this.
Note if you are thinking about an RV, rent them. A timeshare is a better deal than buying an RV for most people, even though timeshares are scams and RVs are not.
The stats here in South Africa are shocking. Some beggars here make more money than genuine workers. And they even have "turf wars" over the lucrative begging spots and busy intersections.
Small vocabulary correction: the term for what you did to get out of it, and the clause that allowed you to do so, is recission, not recension.
“I want to be clear, we aren’t buying this. We have 0 intent here”
He looked at me puzzled and said:
“Why would you waste an hour of your vacation? For $100? You’re just wasting your vacation for that?!”
Getting really upset and slightly personal. I had to respond
“We wanted to see how big a scam these really are and I can’t believe you find suckers that sign on”
He was pretty upset and said the front desk has our gift and huffed out.
Treat them as you would any other predator, like a lion, a grizzly bear, or a mugger. Because that's what they are.
I mean, I guess running away as fast as you can would technically count but in that case I'd suggest there are more fun ways to get exercise and easier ways to get rid of an annoying salesman...
I'd never heard of timeshare back then, but luckily the deal sounded really bad anyway and we were very adamant on not making any decisions under pressure even if it meant losing this "once in a lifetime offer". In the end they begrudgingly gave our tickets to the tours and ushered us out.
Best way is to walk away. Easier said than done for a lot of people.
Robert Greene has a book about this. In one of the examples, he talked about a scammer trying to scam Henry Ford. Ford had no imagination. The scammer failed. Most people are not a Henry Ford.
Thinking you are too smart to ever fall for something is a sure sign that you are probably a good victim.
The amount of times I watched very financially conscious people explain to me that they want to lease and then buy their vehicle afterwards, yet forget about sales tax during the buyout after lease end is comical. They were always surprised that even with a high money factor a lease to purchase still paid off...... Depending on how nice they were I would sometimes show them what the forgot.
Or maybe the correct wording for my own case is that I'm too skeptical/cynical to fall for something.
But it could be smarts too, because I enjoy learning about scams.
I think that falls under the "sunk cost fallacy". Like they are thinking "Well, I've invested so much money already and I'm so close to the payoff now, I may as well send a little more"
Such an assumption would show a clear lack of empathy, no? Esp. on HN where nearly all are familiar with data-mining and relentless targeting of people based on data.
Time share companies are notoriously aggressive in their sales pitch. So "the set of people who bought time shares" already selects for people who have a much higher propensity to send money to these scammers, even multiple times. And upon being scammed, they probably also get their data sold to hundreds other scammers and get stuck in a recursive loop of scam attempts at a much higher rate than the average HN-er.
In some ways I envy them for living in a time period where immediate distrust wasn't the status quo.
I question that. “Swamp land in Florida” has been a thing since before this retiree was born. Sales of similarly useless land in Arizona. Look up “California City” for another example. Cemetery plots, hmm, I’m sure I’ve missed others. Let’s not get started on car dealers.
I don’t recall a time, and I’m confident my parents will say the same thing, where one didn’t distrust a salesperson by default.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0049089X2...
I would also wager it has to do with increasing social and economic stratification and decreasing homogeneity.
There is more opportunity for scams.
You didn't have ~20% of the population being old and feeble and rich until relatively recently.
In 2000, <10% of the population was seniors. It's been going up rapidly since then, and the growth rate won't slow until around 2030.
After 2030, it'll take another 30 years for the rate to increase ~7%. It only took about the last 10 years for it to go up ~10%.
Not to mention, in 2000, seniors didn't have the type of housing equity they have now (in REAL terms).
One possible different might be the internet. Allowing scammers access to so many people makes it easier to fish. There was probably an increase in scamming after the mainstream use of the telephone.
Targeting victims of previous scams is common in crypto and MLM circles. The trick is almost always promising them an out of their previous losses with a new venture and this venture is sold to them on the basis of them being ‘experienced’ or ‘knowledgeable’ about the previous venture.
Personally, I'd be more likely to do a two week stay than two one week stays, I'd rather reduce my time on an airplane. But leaving for two weeks is harder than leaving for one for all sorts of reasons.
There are certain trips I try to do annually but I have zero interest in being locked into someplace like Hawaii on a schedule.
I agree that, especially, after semi-retiring, my goal isn't really to travel less but to spend less time on planes.
Odds are you're just staying with tourists most of the time, and whenever you do need to deal with the locals you have to ignore their thinly-veiled contempt mixed with self-loathing for depending on your patronage.
I hear it gets kind of awkward for Paris people getting summer homes in Britanny. I'm pretty sure the degree of hostility towards mainland Americans getting winter homes in Hawai must be much higher.
Also tourism economies are terrible and create a bunch of terrible perverse incentives for both business and government.
Source: Grew up in one
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Razzle_(game)
Where they actually cheat to help you get enough points that you think you could win them when they stop cheating the game is unwinnable. If the cops show up they will see the carnie playing ‘honestly’ and not see anything wrong. In terms of psychology it is the king of scams.
In the case of the timeshare schemes you will find all sorts of problems and limitations when you try to redeem your points, it is like the limitations on airline frequent flier points but raised to the Nth power.
Of course none of it is as easy as they make it sound.
I do go up to my dad's--now brother's--place in Maine a few times a year but that's as much for family as having a need to go to a specific location. Absent family, I'd probably even vary that a bit.
Obviously, not every worth buying a timeshare.
A beach hotel starts at ~$300/night.
In the end, the best case a timeshare does save money. However for most people the restrictions mean you are never in the best case and often you are in the worst case and lose money.
I had to do it once where I caved under the pressure of a particularly aggressive "life insurance" salesperson, only realized my mistake a day after signing, so I called them up and exercised my right to "cool down".
A gym I was interested in joining had a pay-for-one-month deal, so I said, “sure, why not?” Their system took my e-signature for authorizing the one-time credit card transaction and copied (forged) it onto a shitty gym contract with auto-renewal and a bunch of other terms I didn’t agree to.
Fortunately, my state had a 3-day right of recision, so I followed the requirements in the law to the letter. It only required written notification that I’m exercising my right, so I printed a letter as such, brought a notary friend and another friend as witness, and hand-delivered it to the manager on duty and asked them to sign a receipt for it (which was witnessed and notarized). They tried to give me all kinds of crap about “the company cancellation process,” which I said is great and all, but not applicable because state law trumps company policy and state law says that as of 30 seconds ago our contract never existed. They ultimately relented, especially since they were nervous about the forgery aspect too.
I went to a vacation club presentation for a bunch of free stuff once, it wasn't worth it. But its crazy the things they push onto you. They make up numbers on how expensive vacations are to pressure people into thinking they have a deal. Then they try and sell a huge package ($50k+) and to push people into a 20%+ APR loan. Then if you do sign, they stick monthly fees on top of it in perpetuity.
Its a bad idea, but I could see how people that don't have a sharp eye and a mathematical maturity might fall for it.
Like canceling cable, home internet. It's not that we're using something else, not using it at all, don't want it. It's "we're moving/going to jail for 5 years/dying Thursday and thus cannot continue using this service"
I had a door to door salesman ask if I was racist after I told him I wasn't interested, as if to try to pressure me into proving I wasn't a racist by listening to his pitch/buying into whatever he was selling. It's gotten to the point where I have a video door bell so know when I can skip it all by not answering//pretending I'm not home.
My personal favorites is along the lines of: "Are you hard of hearing, you stupid clown?" - no overly foul language and safe to use in most company.
Few will try selling stuff to someone hurling nothing but insults at them. There's really only one group of people this doesn't work on, and they're the bottom of the barrel trying to find victims on public transport and the like. If you figure out a way to reliably get rid of them, let me know!
They'd usually be speechless or say 'neither', and he'd explain that he already said no, so they must either be hard of hearing or their brain's not processing it. Always caught them off guard. I don't remember if it was effective or not in getting them to go away, oddly enough.
I worked in car sales for a decade and a decent 10%+ of salespeople IMO would get aggressive to your face over that.
Or do you only say that to the non criminal looking ones?
It's basically WarGames. The only winning move is not to play. I don't answer the door when I'm certain it's a salesman. I don't make eye contact/respond to the ones that are setup outside of a store. Same with the ones setup in malls/stores (looking at you, Costco).
Personally I enjoy a bit of excitement, but most people don't want confrontation, which is why appearing confrontational before they're committed works for making them do a u-turn quickly.
To qualify my previous comment, it's not that saying no is seen as rude, it's that salesmen are beyond rude if you try to say no. I have to hide in my home, pretend I'm renting/house sitting, etc because it's less hassle than opening the door and saying no.
Exactly! Came here to echo this. I have family that got roped into this arrangement and the annual maintenance fees (and other misc fees at every turn) coupled with the up-front cost is absolutely ridiculous when compared to just booking an AirBnB/VRBO/etc for a couple weeks.
Also agree on sitting through one with zero intention to sign, once. It's a unique experience, and I feel like most people not already doing sales/marketing professionally might learn something from it.
My wife and I signed up for a snorkel tour a few years ago, one of those "attend this 45 minute presentation and get your tour for half price!" deals.
We skipped the presentation and ended up being charged the full tour cost plus something extra, I think $25/person on a $200/person tour.
That has to be close to the best 50 bucks I ever spent.
Timeshares on eBay are crazy cheap by comparison. A timeshare in Hawaii during prime season can be had for $50k or something like that, which sounds like a lot until you realize that the vacation clubs will sell that timeshare for, like, $500k.
My impression is that they were heavily targeting people who were bad at math. Every time I ran the numbers (I had a lot of opportunities while trapped in the room waiting for the prize counter to open) it just made no sense whatsoever. Beyond the amount you were overpaying for the apartment, the fees we so expensive that you could vacation on what you would have been paying in fees for a long time. The fees didn't even get you much, you still had to do all of the cleaning and a lot of the maintenance as they were not included. The fees only really covered exterior maintenance and mowing the lawns, and were about two or three orders of magnitude higher than they should be for those services if you assumed every unit in the complex was paying them 52 times a year.
Timeshares as a concept could in theory work, but the entire industry consists of grifters far more focused on getting rich than providing a service to their customers. It is ironic that the primary focus of the presentations is how expensive it would be to take a beach vacation every year, which is true, and how timeshares in concept could make this much more affordable, which is also true, but then they show you the numbers and the reality is completely opposite.
You do need to be prepared for a hard sell. They are clearly making money otherwise they wouldn’t fly me around the country.
However if your time isn’t worth $50/hr or more (as in you’re a college student, etc) and you’re strong willed it can be worth it. Maybe.
True “shared ownership of a single unit at a resort” is far less common these days.
If you can walk away: then 100% yes. I've considered a timeshare at a ski resort during the popular school vacation week.
The problem is that often you can't walk away. IE, with a vacation home, you can sell it; or otherwise default on the mortgage / taxes. With a timeshare, that's harder.
Personally, I just stay in hotels. So much easier, and the hotel bill is cheaper than whatever monthly payment the timeshare / vacation home is.
In the end just buying it piece meal is most likely best option.
Timeshares give up a lot of the advantages of just owning a vacation home, without many advantages other than price.
You have even less control of the property than a coop/condo, you don't get the financial incentive of possible real estate appreciation, there is no real liquid open market for resale.. etc.
Time shares are like a casino where the house always wins. They control the costs/fees the same way a casino controls the odds/payouts. They are probably less regulated than a casino too.
The other advantage to a proper vacation home is.. if its a beach / ski / whatever place whatever, you leave all your gear there, changes of clothes, etc.. not hauling stuff.
HGVC: https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/hgvcs-deed-back-process.35...
Hyatt: https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/hyatt-now-has-a-buy-back-p...
Of course, these are not well advertised. And it contradicts the sales pitch of the timeshare maintaining / increasing in value if you are simply giving it back for free.
From $350 to $1,200 per month for a 10-year loan with a 10% down payment = $144,117
+ the annual fees.
Oh well...
"Ability to finance through our in house financing with no credit check" errrrm.
"A groundbreaking non-credit check model for financing DVC loans. No credit check, no debt-to-income ratios, simply financed based on the value of your purchase."
Though if you purchase from the secondary market ( = people reselling it), it gets cheap enough that it becomes interesting.
And really the whole thing only makes sense if you pay upfront without a loan.
I've priced it out a few times and for me it doesn't make sense despite staying at WDW ~ 4+ weeks a year.
But when compared to other timeshares, it's not a total lock in and Disney has apparently started buying back contracts if you wanted out.
It’s your property; within zoning restrictions, you can do whatever you want with it.
Not true with a timeshare.
Only if you're lucky enough to own it in a place that hasn't outlawed AirBNB rentals yet.
You didn't hear it from me but the scheme is: an individual or group of investors will buy several properties to AirBNB in a moderately-popular vacation spot. Typically someplace fairly rural and off the beaten path. But desirable enough for photos that might trend briefly on pinterest. Then they (rather covertly) drum up local support for banning AirBNBs, while being careful to make sure their existing rentals are grandfathered in. Now their investments have a moat and they can charge whatever they want for them, especially if there are no hotels or resorts anywhere nearby.
But few people do that much research and find out that they don't use it as much as they thought they would either because they don't like the place enough to keep going back, or they didn't account for blackout dates, floating weeks, etc and can't find a time when they can go.
But if you do buy a timeshare, by on the secondary market, don't buy a new one, they quickly drop in value on resale.
Theoretically you can run a non-scammy timeshare, but why would you, when running a scam is the same work but so much more lucrative? The lemons push out the good ones in this market.
This is simply factually incorrect. While I myself would never own a timeshare because it just would never make sense for me, some timeshare contracts are for limited lengths (e.g. 20 years) and maintenance fees are capped.
The issue is less that timeshares are outright scams (though some are), but it's that buyers are locked into a very long term contract that is difficult and expensive to get out off. What may have seemed like a great idea to take the kids on an annual beach vacation now becomes a PITA when those kids are teenagers and now don't want to go on trips with their parents.
So with timeshare owners you have (a) people likely susceptible to high pressure sales tactics who (b) are likely highly motivated to get out of their contract. So a perfect target for scammers.
We still go to one 30 years later, and the maintenance is about 1/3 of what you’d pay for an equivalent hotel room (€1,000 vs €3,000) so I think overall they are “up”.
They're not technically scams. Just generally not good things to own for most people.
If you use your vacation time every year for the rest of your life, they can be decent.
It's just that most people don't want to vacation to the same place, the same week every year. And they're notoriously difficult to get out of.
My parents nonetheless fell for one in the early 20-teens. How they had missed this particular bit of common wisdom, I have no idea.
Asking because someone in my extended family owns a timeshare and got scammed with an exit offer. It sounded similar to the timeshare pitch itself.
Maybe my opinion is biased (the media generally does not publish "everythibg is a-OK" articles), but my perception of the timeshare escape industry is that they are sketchy too.
I think this Last Week Tonight episode is very informative on the topic:
Timeshares: not even once.
If you’re savvy enough to run a scam like this, shouldn’t you be savvy enough to find an honest way to make money?
I wonder whether they use a domain name monitoring firm now.
The Krebs case study claims that the couple was unable to "legally sell" the timeshare due to their remaining payments.
So these scammers were asking them to do what--illegally sell to them? What are the consequences or repercussions of a premature sale?
"Hey, yeah, we know we've got a bad investment; looks like some Mexican sucker is calling us to let us off the hook!"
If this is true, and the couple was cooperating knowingly with a gray-market transaction, then their hands weren't clean at all, and I can't muster any sympathy here.
The usual litany of red flags: they cold-called you. You did no due diligence, probably because you knew they had to be shady. They promised you money, but then asked for advance fees. What legit consumer just falls for all that, unless they're desperate and shady themselves?
Lie down with dogs, wake up with fleas.
The mark must be willing to (1) steal a rolex from a drunk man lying unconscious in an alley and leave without calling for help (2) cheat their "co-conspirator" out of most of the rolex's value.
If you fall for that, it's not like you can go to the police afterwards.
People don't know the law, and are desperate to believe whatever willl get out from under a boondoggle that is sapping them of their fixed income. It's more likely they fell for something than that they are trying to break the law.
you don't talk to the police. I would do anything I can to avoid calling them myself, unless I needed to for insurance reasons
They didn't report it, because (A) they were themselves involved in illegal activity, and they knew it and/or (B) the drug cartel element, even if they were in Canada, may threaten them with imminent violence or great harm. (Although the three-nation cluster** nature of this crime makes that seem unlikely)
If you meet a new gentleman and he steals your purse on the first date, you may contact police. If you hired a prostitute, and wake up without your wallet, you may let that one slide.
Consider the drug buyer who calls the police because his dealer cheated him, or the trafficker who shows up at the impound facility to claim his wares, or the embezzler who reports the stolen income on his taxes... a rare breed indeed!
These time share companies need to get bent. These platforms perpetuate the worst types of scams on our most vulnerable populations (elderly).
I went to one of these timeshare pitches because they were giving away free stays at an associated hotel — got a “free” 4 day/night accommodation. The catch here was I had to attend a 1-2 hour sales pitch for their “club” (timeshare).
Read the fine print before accepting the 4 day/night accommodation to make sure I did not have to accept a timeshare contract. Only obligation was the sales pitch and stay for the entire pitch.
Scheduled the pitch for later in the week of the vacation. Set a timer on my watch/phone as soon as I checked in for 1.5 hrs. Listened passively to their pitch. I feigned interest but ultimately declined each contract and each attempt to pull my credit report (do not give these people your SSN).
Each decline was met with:
- “I can go back to my manager and get a better deal. I’m making no profit”. Person comes back with a contract that throws in a bunch of “perks” (more “points” or something like that).
- high pressure sales tactics like: “this deal expires today”. “I’m basically giving this away for free”.
- Lies such as: “vacation anywhere you want in the world and any time”. But clearly contract and terms state otherwise and need to purchase additional “points” at certain locations. Doesn’t include holidays.
- more lies such as “after it’s paid off, you ‘own’ the time share”. Again, it’s bullshit. the “monthly maintenance fees” are in perpetuity (forever) and go up at any time at the discretion of club. You don’t “own” jack shit. The contract is worthless.
There were several other people as well in doing the sales pitch and made sure to call out the absurdities and lies so everyone could hear.
As soon as my watch/phone timer alerted. Got up, shake hands with sales person and manager, and I just left. I fulfilled my obligation.
Their options and just getting anything scheduled was becoming harder and harder to the point that you couldn't schedule anything. They took your money and pretty much no dates were available....
It just so happened that this family member frequently traveled for work and were in some credit card + hotel points program that also was managed by the corporation that ran the time share. They went and checked what they could redeem their points for and ... it was the exact locations they used to be able to book via the timeshare.
The company had taken the timeshare owners money, now that they had it, they gave the benefits to their points / credit card customers.
In a semi related story I worked once with a timeshare company who wanted to "get into the digital age". I never worked with a more ignorant customer. Their standard operating procedure was to get their vendors on a conference call and tell them to "figure it out".
Suing someone requires money for lawyers. You can be out a significant chunk of a megabuck before you can land a solid judgement against someone. And I guarantee these scammers are experts at navigating the system.
It they won't let you out normally, you need to stop paying, let them foreclose and take the credit hit. You have to expect it to hit your credit, but often it doesn't because the timeshare companies don't want to attract the attention. Once you have signalled that you are willing to take the hit and you are not going to feed them any more money, most of them would rather not spend money foreclosing and would rather just move on to the next sucker.