Know nothing about automobile engineering but somehow this feels like WordPerfect releasing a fantastic version for DOS when Windows was already capturing all the market.
Btw they did that. Rest is history.
Btw they did that. Rest is history.
I think it's a great analogy. It's all the little quirks and flaws that make ICE cars feel like they have a 'soul'. The more you have to engage with it, the more it feels human and machine are having a conversation. Many car enthusiasts seek out manual gearboxes (despite being slower to 60mph than a modern auto), because it's _fun_ and gives you some mechanical sympathy.
I own an EV, which is a fantastic daily, and a 911 for weekends. I've never felt like taking the EV out for no reason other than to enjoy a mountain pass. It's too heavy in the corners and too sterile.
Yes manual steering and gearbox are fun. The response is linear predictable.
But if I were a kid entering college I'll be scared to choose automotive engineering as it's mostly likely to be wasted knowledge..
On the other hand of the spectrum, Hyundai Ioniq 5 N can emulate a sports car with an internal combustion engine and 8 speed sequential gearbox.
>On the other hand of the spectrum, Hyundai Ioniq 5 N can emulate a sports car with an internal combustion engine and 8 speed sequential gearbox.
Sports cars are sometimes for vanity, which is a role that a Hyundai wouldn't fill. But you referenced driving characteristics. Fair enough, and so no need to talk about the vanity attraction of a future all electric Porsche. When not for vanity only, sports cars are for people who like a driving experience. Sports car culture is strongly critical of any deviation from an ideal experience even with better ICE cars. Therefore, it tends to detest "the other end of the spectrum" the most.
Sports cars are integrating electric motors, but mostly as horsepower and torque supplements for ICE. The most well regarded sports cars for the common man err toward being ultra-light weight, relatively low power, and high rpm with a manual gearbox. With the rest being as analog as possible. With incremental deviations from that ideal only as preferred for specific owner comfort. None of that criteria speaks to an appropriate / desired role for an electric motor.
Future? You can buy an all-electric Porsche Taycan since 2019 - and it’s faster than the 911.
Sports cars are fully adopting electrification, due to the huge torque numbers and high scalability. M-B and BMW of course, but also Porsche and soon to be Ferrari. It’s not just hybrids used for a boost (as in the decade past): those are full electrics.
I by no means fall into this category completely, but I much rather have a moderately slower car than an electric, with real engine/intake/exhaust noise that handles well on turns.
Kind of, but not really. It accelerates from 0 faster but that's just about it. I don't think anybody would prefer a Taycan on the track versus a 911, and if you were actually racing them, I think the 911 would win every time.
Again, "faster" isn't the most important metric for car enthusiasts. Which is what I described in my post. I know that's disappointing to people who would like it to be in order to claim total justification for electric motors.
To say that "sports cars are fully adopting electrification" seems to want to imply that sports cars are moving mostly to full electrification. This isn't remotely true. Their customer base wouldn't stand for it.
I own a 2014 Boxster S. 315 hp, 266 lb/ft torque, 6-speed. It is NOT the fastest car out there. In fact I own an automatic 3-series BMW that's faster in a straight line every time.
But the Boxster is under 3k pounds curb weight. It is laser-precise on the road. And it sounds glorious, especially with sport exhaust.
I'm often driving between 20-35 mph in second gear because it's the best day-to-day way to hear the engine's sounds.
Otherwise, there are people out there buying 911s/etc. because they can rather than because they care, and those people don't care that Porsche is moving sports cars to hybrid, or less interested in putting manuals in their cars.
But lots of us still want the pure sports experience.
While I admit its severely wanting and the car will suffer for the abuse on the turns, I can get the edge of that feeling in an old Corolla simply due to the weight and connectedness. While the much faster and newer luxury cars are numb (yet have their place for commuting and highway driving).
It's why older (inherently bare bones) Lotus's are still $50k, ancient Honda S2000's are $20k, and new Miata's approach new base trim SUV prices.
It's why you love your Porsche. And it's why a new Porsche GTS4 Rs (double clutch aside) sells for $100k over sticker new or used, is $100k over the cheapest comparable McLaren in the used market, and why it's very difficult to get one new. Just for example.
All electric sports cars have been a thing for a while, even at the supercar level. Car enthusiasts have in fact embraced electrics. Go on youtube and look up drag race comparison races and a Model S Plaid is very frequently the one people want to beat.
Double clutched automatics have taken over h pattern manuals.
You citing the appearance of the Model S Plaid at "youtube drag races" reflects more of your lack of understanding than my own.
The double clutch vs manual debate isn't relevant to the one under discussion. Its an interface argument that is more niched than ICE vs electric, is specialized to each particular car, and each particular use and driving preference.
No it's just a simple example of how attitudes are changing. You'd expect the drag/Hoonigan crowd to be ICE diehards, but instead they've embraced electrics as interesting and worthy competition.
You asserted that the sportscar world would "detest" any change away from ICE, when clearly that's not what we're seeing.
Porsche and others are embracing all electric platforms. Even hypercar manufacturers like Koenigsegg are embracing hybrids as a transitional technology.
Then look at the cutting edge stuff like the Perry Sterling and it's obvious electric race cars have a bright future indeed. Look at the electric cars and bikes running exhibition at Pikes or Isle of Man. People in the racing world are excited about these developments.
> The double clutch vs manual debate isn't relevant to the one under discussion.
You're the one that mentioned manual gearboxes in your comment.
For the common hobbyist/enthusiast electric vehicles are still mostly looked down on regardless of make/model. I don't know how many times I've heard some variation of "it's really a shame that company X made the spiritual successor for model Y as a hybrid/electric/automatic" and old ICE cars that cost a fraction of the price of even an electric supercar get more crowd attention at meets.
I think it's a combination of a few of things. For one, "raw" driving feel is still pretty much unmatched though this has much to do with older cars not having as many creature comforts / driving assists as newer cars do and not entirely an ICE vs electric issue outside of losing the manual gearbox and engine sound. Tuning/modding is also pretty much incomparable between the two- you will never get as much customization / feeling of a unique build on an electric car because there's simply far less you can actually tune and/or modify. And finally, cost, most hobbyists can't justify buying a performance oriented electric car at today's prices when an old ICE sports car as a wrenching project is far far cheaper and feel more fun to drive on twisty roads due to the driving feedback.
Yes, EVs are better in a lot of ways, but in 2024 there are severe barriers that make EVs impractical for a lot of people. Throughout most of the world, charging infrastructure just isn't good enough.
Because cities have better charging infra than rural areas, EVs are at their best as commuter cars. Ironically, there was already an alternative to commuter cars that's hypothetically even better than EVs - public transit - and it also suffers due to lack of investment in infrastructure development.
As you can see, compared to 2023, the sales numbers have been worse month for month in 2024, not just in August.
We are talking hobbyists not corporate office software users. ICE is boring to my monkey brain looking to be entertained/engaged even if vastly superior.