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Comment by RandomThoughts3 | Hacker News Reader

I don’t think he is particularly pithy to be honest. You have to realise that he conducts all of his day to day activities in public.

I have seen program managers do far worse than his most famous rants in meetings while working for Fortune 500 companies.

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This is something I keep trying to point out to people. That doesn't mean that Linus is any kind of role model in this way - but people point to open-source interactions as especially "toxic" while ignoring (or being ignorant of) the fact that things are often _far worse_ behind closed doors. The differences being that 1) they're behind closed doors and therefore rarely seen, and 2) calling out a rude interactions in open-source projects is unlikely to get you fired or on the wrong exec's shitlist.

> people point to open-source interactions as especially "toxic" while ignoring (or being ignorant of) the fact that things are often _far worse_ behind closed doors

Can we admit that those close doors are super toxic places then? The claim is not supposed to be that open source is the most toxic place ever, just that it is toxic. That there are close source companies that are cesspits is a fact too - but that is an independent claim.

There are also many close source workplaces where things are NOT toxic or are less toxic.

> Can we admit that those close doors are super toxic places then?

Hmm, no?

Openness to conflict rises considerably as the level of responsibility augments in a company. This is not toxic. What happens between closed doors is different than what is tolerated in the open.

Plus my culture doesn’t see open conflicts as toxic to beginning with that’s an American thing. I myself think the constant fake American positivity is extremely toxic but that’s my own cultural bias.

Aversion to open conflict isn't an American thing. It's an imperialist thing. And it's really annoying.

People say open source is toxic because the base assumption is that it is not toxic, so it is surprising and worth mentioning when you see it that way. Where people don't say that about work environments because the base assumption is that they are toxic so it is not worth mentioning as you'd just be stating the obvious.

You are not wrong, but this is far from obvious for most people. Most companies have strong PR maintaining appearances for people without a lot of experience. So while this is an independent claim I think it’s still to remind that.

> This is something I keep trying to point out to people.

I agree with your comment and would love to read more if you've blogged more about this somewhere?

I thought he got way too much stick for that. Most of the rants all seemed to be at senior people who should have known better trying to break ironclad, well established rules that exist for a very good reason (e.g. "we don't break userspace mauro").

Look at the rants without understanding the context (which, frankly, most people don't - kernel development is pretty arcane) and the rants look worse than they really were.

Just because you've seen worse doesn't excuse it. Everyone who behaves this way should find ways to deal with their emotions in a healthy way that doesn't negatively affect others.

I think it's also cultural. British for example are very worried abou sub-text and saving face. West coast americans are more worried about coming across as positive and use superlatives that other cultures find exagerated.

Nordic and Central Europe cultures value 'straight talk' and saying what you will do, and doing what you say you will do. Generally when you ask for feedback you are expected to have a thick skin when professors/experts review your work.

I am not excusing abuse but I am pointing out that it is misguided to look at one work culture through the lens of another.

This is discriminatory to cultures you arbitrarily believe are lesser.

Some cultures propagate misogyny. Abuse can never be explained away by culture. There are ways to be straight to the point about someone's work without hurling personal insults. I have worked with many people of different backgrounds and never once felt their culture truly in the behavior Linus displays. I'm not saying he needs to be politically correct, only try to be decent to his fellow person.

What cultures are these?

This.

I love the way Linus rants in public.

When I was 24, I got a rant in private from PG, and it was pretty shocking at the time:

"You guys just set a new all-time record in losing by being based in SF and skipping events at YC. I doubt it will ever be surpassed. Peter Thiel was speaking today. When he described the kind of companies he liked to invest in, he was describing Jobpic. So after his speech I jumped up and excitedly told him about you. He was very intrigued by the idea. I went off to find you to introduce you, and you're not here.

At least now I'll have a really good story when I tell each new batch that they'll miss out if they live in the city.

--pg"

3 notes:

1. He was right, my cofounder should have been there (I couldnt be there).

2. The hyperbole made it memorable. My friends still tease me about this "playing hard to get with Peter Thiel? Ballsy"

3. The only sad thing is people are afraid to be like this in public, and put on a more politically correct face in public. Linus has had the guts to be the same person in public and private. Something worth emulating.

These days, not having met Peter Thiel looks like you dodged a bullet.

(Also perhaps worth recognizing that the guy berating you for not patronizing YC is a founder of YC. I also think you're a loser for not buying my product ;) )

I disagree with you on PT (I love someone with the confidence to follow their own model of the world, rather than follow the crowd), but I agree with you that I need to buy some of your furniture! That's some beautiful stuff (https://www.aechairs.com/my-furniture/)! How long have you been woodworking?

Causing massive harm to other people because it might possibly make the number in one's own bank account slightly larger seems like pretty miserable behavior to me.

> I agree with you that I need to buy some of your furniture! That's some beautiful stuff! How long have you been woodworking?

Thanks! About 8 or 9 years. I recently got into chairmaking. I haven't sold any yet, but my goal through the end of the year is to make a handful and then try to sell some at local maker markets in 2025.

> About 8 or 9 years.

Awesome! There's another woodworker I follow (https://nondot.org/sabre/Woodworking.html) who is also a pretty good programmer ;).

> Causing massive harm to other people because it might possibly make the number in one's own bank account slightly larger seems like pretty miserable behavior to me.

I disagree with a ton of what PT says/does, but I respect how he always come about things in an original way--he's got his own model of the universe that he follows. From what I can tell he also is always learning, and willing to update his model when shown wrong.

Most people just accept the model of the universe given to them by authorities.

It is impossible to be an expert on everything. In fact it is really hard to be an expert on one single thing. At some point you have to either yield to the experts, or be wrong. It's a really stupid thing to choose to be wrong, instead of trust the experts.

This is why we have careers and specialties ("authorities", to give it another word). When you break your arm, you don't go learn bone medicine from scratch while your arm turns gangrenous. That would be stupid. You go to the doctor because fixing broken bones is their specialty and not yours. Similarly, climate change is staring us in the face, and Thiel is going "nah, screw the experts, I know better" and spending his resources to send us straight into the surface of the sun. That's stupid. There's nothing to respect in his bold, willful ignorance causing harm to everyone on the planet.

Pretty wild to love someone who does what they believe in regardless of how insane it is.

That behaviour sucks and is not acceptable. Sorry that you have had shitty coworkers in corporate America. That’s not what the world is.

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