Comment by AlbertCory | Hacker News Reader

Comment by AlbertCory | Hacker News Reader

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> throws its weight to take patented technology without payment

This is called "begging the question": assuming what is in dispute and needs proving.

"Patented technology" assumes that the "invention" was indeed worthy of a patent. If you want to take some example patents whose claims were thrown out in IPR, I'll be happy to debate them with you.

> Ex Parte Reexamination simply makes it easier to avoid patent claims since it provides another opportunity to throw out claims, some of which may have stood in a full trial.

Again, you are begging the question. I've actually watched a mock jury debate patent eligibility. Their assumption is that the PTO wouldn't have granted the patent if it weren't valid. I actually heard a member say about a piece of invalidating prior art (paraphrasing), "That's so obscure! It's not fair to expect the PTO to know about that!"

> The PTO reviewers are hardly more knowledgeable about technical fields than juries.

You can't be serious. Technical knowledge is not expected from a jury. PTO examiners are accustomed to doing this.

> Is this not depriving people of their right to a jury?

Not an unconditional right. A jury trial costs anywhere from $500,000 to $1,000,000 a day. Demand for a jury trial by an NPE is basically extortion.

> Somehow 64% of reviews end up with changes, is this not a sign that the PTO has been all to regularly changing its mind about valid patents?

For the third time, "begging the question." Find some patents that were modified and we'll talk about them.

> Google has settled many patent cases over the years, surely some of them were valid patents.

Pretty weak reasoning. Settling is not an admission of guilt.

> I do agree many software patents are not applicable and are often spam, but there are real costs to decreasing patent rights outside of software.

At last you've hit on something reasonable: take software out of the patent field entirely, and we can make some good law.

I’m generally of the opinion that you are probably right, given that you are on a site where people are inclined to be opposed to your position but are handling the argument quite deftly (this is a dumb way of handling it, but I’m not a law guy, I’m a programming guy, so this is outside my wheelhouse, so I’m just using social signals).

But this has be confused:

>> Is this not depriving people of their right to a jury?

> Not an unconditional right. A jury trial costs anywhere from $500,000 to $1,000,000 a day. Demand for a jury trial by an NPE is basically extortion.

Sure, no right is infinite, but jury trials are pretty foundational to our system, right?

And these costs, where do they come from? Does every trial cost a million dollars a day? (I mean surely small claims court trials don’t right?)

I’m a little suspicious because I’ve heard these big companies tend to hire expensive lawyers. If that’s where the cost is coming from, seems like a “them problem.”

> And these costs, where do they come from? Does every trial cost a million dollars a day? (I mean surely small claims court trials don’t right?)

small claims courts don't have a jury.

If you're suing a giant company and asking for hundreds of millions in damages, they're for sure going to pull out all the stops. It's not My Cousin Vinny.

Are you saying the jury is what costs a million dollars a day? That’s mind-blowing to somebody who doesn’t have any contact with the legal system.

Dang, I wasn’t picked for jury duty a while ago. At some fraction of a million bucks a day, I’d have been set for a while.

Tongue in cheek of course. Look, I’m intentionally stating my stupidity here, what’s the cost, is it really unavoidable or is it something that these big companies take on by their own decision?

I realize I was a little glib in ignoring your comments on the right to a jury trial. This IS a gray area, in that you can be deprived of your property.

However, if there's a city planning board hearing on your application to remodel your house, you're not entitled to a jury. The IRS can assess penalties without a jury. So it's not as simple as "you have a right to a jury trial." The PTO awarded your patent, a process that might have included multiple appeals, without juries. Not all administrative procedures allow juries.

I attended one day of the Apple v. Samsung trial in San Jose. Google had a "war room" (I assume Apple did, too), which was a suite in a hotel where we had meals brought in, and held all the work product. You can't risk sitting around in a restaurant and having people overhearing and bothering you. The war room has a guard outside 24x7.

Expert witnesses are transported there and housed, and paid anywhere from $300 to $900 an hour. Most of the legal staff don't live in that city and have to travel there. Partners in big law firms bill at $1000 an hour or so.

Big money.

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