Comment by foobiekr | Hacker News Reader

Comment by foobiekr | Hacker News Reader

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A lot of people confuse the secondary effects of alcohol (basically, mostly, social permission) with the primary effects. Most developed countries have purged almost all ritual from their cultures, which means that there aren't really occasions for people to experiment with their behavior - and it provides air cover for engaging in riskier behaviors - and so alcohol provides the outlet for them.

Alcohol is one of the most boring psychoactive experiences there is, it's the safest, the most predictable and the most repeatable. There's nothing challenging about it - happy drunks are going to be happy drunks, angry/emotional drunks are going to be angry/emotional drunks, people who use the context of alcohol to excuse behaviors that they feel they would otherwise be judged for (promiscuity, "I love you guys! no I really do!", etc. etc.) are doing just that. The only drug with more predictability than alcohol is caffeine, with the common opiates being next in line for being absolutely predictable - do X get Y.

Alcohol is boring. Even pot or tobacco are more interesting, but they lack the social context that provides behavioral permissibility which is really what drives the ritual-lite use - going drinking on the weekend.

Alcohol is one of the most STANDARDIZED substances on the planet. 5% at 500 mil is always going to be the same amount of alcohol. Of course it's going to be predictable and socially acceptable. Try doing any other drug and you have no clue what you're getting, even if you get it from the the same source time and time again.

The predictability is a FEATURE. And btw, it's not boring at all.

You are conflating boring with predictable.

aye. the only times I've eaten pot brownies they were overly strong and not fun. same for psychodelics -- hit wayyyy harder than I'd ever think, and while it was quite a ride, I'm not game to try that again without knowing the dose.

meanwhile 2-3 beers with friends I haven't seen in a while is a good time, good convo, and we can chill out and sip water for 30 min to make sure we're safe to drive. like, I'm looking to have a pint with the lads and have nice conversation, not undergo ego death.

Weed in the US is starting to get this way as well. It’s amazing the amount of actually useful drug information you can get from products sold at weed shops these days. Meanwhile you don’t even get nutritional facts or ingredients with beer. I wish I liked either drug but I should be happy I don’t.

Safe compared to meth maybe but not compared to caffeine.

Setting aside alcohol addiction, the costs of alcohol abuse to your health (e.g., brain damage, liver disease, etc.), and the risk of killing yourself by drinking too much in a sitting, there's also the way it drastically increases the risk of drunk driving and domestic violence.

I'm not saying we should ban it or anything, but we should not be underplaying the very real risks and costs associated with it.

the counter argument I hear is that few extra years of life you get by being 100% sober are not worth it.

Think of alcohol as ancient painkiller/antidepressant that helped people to get through the challenges of their lifes and make it through the life without walking out of the window

People who have that much of an issue with sobriety have other demons they need to address in therapy.

So, I could get behind a lot of the idea you are pushing here. But, I question whether you have evidence to back it up?

For one, to claim that most developed countries have purged ritual feels more like you are referring to some specific rituals. Or have amusing cuts on what you consider developed countries.

You also sort of undercut yourself by noting that alcohol hits people in different, if repeatable ways; but you seem to think that will not be true for other drugs? From my experience, I would expect the same for pot. Tobacco, I confess I never really saw it impact anyone. Outside of getting them addicted.

Simply stated, why do you think you would not see such variability of how other items impact people?

>For one, to claim that most developed countries have purged ritual feels more like you are referring to some specific rituals.

They most likely mean all kinds of overt rituals societies used to have and some non-western societies still have.

What kind of rituals do we have that you have in mind that we still have, and that are not either very peripheral to everyday life or have not been diminishing in importance and attendance year by year?

Ignoring that there are non-western developed countries; many western societies still have church attendance, for one. Then there are the ball game rituals that have risen quite a bit. We still largely have the same holidays, as well.

Do we still do the same rituals as we did in the past? Of course not. Which is why I would largely agree. I suspect the evidence will be such that there are still more rituals than folks admit to. Graduation ceremonies. Weddings. Etc.

> Alcohol is...the safest [psychoactive drug]

Yeah, no. According to CDC data, more than 150,000 people die from excessive alcohol consumption per year [1], which is about how many people died of heroin overdoses in the past 20 years [2].

By and large, the labels "safe" or "dangerous" are subjective and highly cultural, at least when it comes to substances.

[1] https://www.cdc.gov/alcohol/facts-stats/index.html

[2] https://www.cdc.gov/overdose-prevention/about/heroin.html

Could you normalise that data? Deaths per user?

> According to CDC data, more than 150,000 people die from excessive alcohol consumption per year [1], which is about how many people died of heroin overdoses in the past 20 years [2]

Easy, everyone drinks, almost nobody shoots up. There you go, explained.

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