Comment by qsdf38100 | Hacker News Reader

Comment by qsdf38100 | Hacker News Reader

Parent Full thread

Yeah, maybe, who knows. Of course, you should be aware that if you search for a pattern long enough, you’ll find one.

Now, in this first verse are interesting lyrics that are referring to the chords being played, which I think are not hidden but you have to know a bit of music theory. English is not my first language so it might be a bit broken, but bear with me :)

"The forth, the fifth" refer to the degrees of the chords being played at this moment. In C major, the 1st degree is the C major chord, the 4th is F major, 5th is G major. This is a very common progression, and usually it ends up in a 5th -> 1st cadence, which would be F major, G major and C major here. But you can also, instead of the expected 1th, go to the 6th, which is a A minor chord here. This is known as a minor fall, I assume, which is exactly the lyrics at that moment. But then, the lyrics mention a "major lift", which is also what happens when it goes through the same progression, 4th, 5th, but then the 3rd (E major) with one note lifted (the G#) making the chord major, and resolving to A in a true cadence, because E major -> A minor is a 5th -> 1st for the A minor scale.

To summarize, the chord progression is faking a IV V I cadence, but falling to VI (A minor), then faking a IV V I cadence again, but lifting to a "majorified" III (E major) which become V I cadence in the A scale, allowing us to resolve on A instead of "falling" on A like the first time. So we went from the C major scale to the A minor scale, which are also the first two chords of the song, repeated many times.

So, this whole "the 4th, the 5th, the minor fall and the major lift, the baffled king composing hallelujah" is nicely describing the chord progression underneath, while being poetic, and I just love it. So I had to share, sorry if it was obvious to you already. Cheers.

> This is known as a minor fall, I assume

Since turnabout is fair play, it’s worth noting this is mostly false; if you google “minor fall music theory” you’ll only find references to Cohen.

In (conventional western) analysis, a “fall” wouldn't be something mechanical, it would always imply a contextual interpretation.

So it’s a valid reading of the text to say it means something about the chord structure, but — from a purely musical theoretical perspective — just as valid to read it as a reference to the flattening of the minor degree of the scale, or something else entirely.

It’s really a lovely song :)

I assumed wrong :) The correct term is a deceptive cadence. According to Britannica.com "It begins with V, like an authentic cadence, except that it does not end on the tonic. Often the triad built on the sixth degree (VI, the submediant) substitutes for the tonic, with which it shares two of its three pitches."

Still, I think that by "the 4th, the 5th, the minor fall" Cohen is likely referring to this IV V VI progression with the deceptive "minor fall" cadence, and the major lift is likely referring to the subsequent IV V III(V) VI(I) progression, (degrees in the A scale are in parenthesis) where the III(V) is "majorified" (it should be a E minor in the C major scale) with this "lifted" G# note. This note is also what makes the scale shift from C major to A minor.

Anyway, I could be seeing something that Cohen didn't intend, but as someone who has had a lot of fun composing lots of songs, I'd said that's quite likely he really was collating composing terms describing the underneath progression with grand spiritual feelings, which is what this verse is about: the divine behind music and composing, and maybe more generally creativity and inspiration.

A lovely song indeed :)

> sorry if it was obvious to you already

It was definitely not obvious to me! What do you make of the third chord under ‘composing’ that would not be playable in a diatonic (?) scale that was used at the time of King David, as the video claims?

I've not seen the video, but that chord is just a usual major chord, that is, a chord with 3 notes: a fundamental, a major third and a fifth.

It's a very common chord, we could say it's a "natural" chord because when a string vibrates, its first harmonics make this chord. I'm not sure why it would be a secret chord, or why you couldn't get one from a diatonic scale. Now, it's true that, assuming your instrument is "stuck" in the C major scale, you won't have a G# note, which is needed for this E major chord. Whether or not they could play such a chord progression at the time of King David doesn't feel relevant to me, in the context of the rest of the song. I would be surprised if this is what Cohen was getting at by "secret chord". I don't think "secret chord" means a chord in particular in the song. If I had to guess, I would rather think it could be a metaphor of the search for perfection in composition, and this song would be a "tribute" to perfection, but not perfection itself. Just like Tenacious D "tribute" song :)

Reply on news.ycombinator.com