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Comment by NavinF | Hacker News Reader

>But records released so far show the probe, which wrapped in November, found that the entire chiefs mess knew about the secret system, and those who didn’t buy into it were nonetheless culpable for not reporting the misconduct.

>Marrero and her cohorts paid $2,800 for a Starlink High Performance Kit with a personal credit card, and contacted Starlink to expedite shipping so the system would arrive in time for the deployment.

>Those involved also used the Chief Petty Officer Association’s debit card to pay off the $1,000 monthly Starlink bill, and Marrero warned the chiefs to only use the network in their rooms.

Sounds like the Navy needs to provide better wifi before people get desperate like this and screw up their electronic warfare

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> Sounds like the Navy needs to provide better wifi before people get desperate like this and screw up their electronic warfare

"Desperate" is a strong word. The point is that there should be no wifi at all during these deployments, and there are reasonable operational security reasons for that ban. This isn't a "fix" to a problem, it's directly disobeying an order.

Navy already can’t meet their enlisted recruiting [1] and civilian mariner [2] targets. Operational security is a consideration, but unmanned vessels don’t sail and project force.

As stevetodd’s link mentions downthread, the Navy is procuring StarLink officially (likely as part of StarShield, their DoD product with milspec satellites and full DoD ownership and control [3]); peel off some bandwidth for the humans if you expect them to show up to the job. They’ll easily find a better job in the current labor macro otherwise [4].

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39169676

[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41331066

[3] https://spacenews.com/pentagon-embracing-spacexs-starshield-...

[4] https://www.defense.gov/News/News-Stories/Article/article/36...

How about a huge collection of offline digital medias and an Intranet that connects the sailors on the ship? That might help a bit?

that solves 1 of the three content types. the other two are "check sports scores, text home" which an intranet would not solve.

I'd assume "text home" is the one that's explicitly against the rules no matter the method.

Most media that your average person is interested in can't legally be obtained for offline consumption.

Your average techie can get around that by using Jellyfin, Sonarr/Radarr, Torrent trackers and such, but the military has to follow the law.

THe fact that ships travel around the world doesn't make this easier. Even if the Pentagon could make a deal with most of the major U.S. streaming services to provide their content to the military in a secure, offline fashion, which they probably could, those companies are often prohibited from distributing that content outside U.S. borders due to exclusivity agreements.

I was on a ferry from Barcelona to Mallorca. They had a movies, magazines and newspapers on what looks like an intranet app. It probably works the same way an airplane's in-flight entertainment.

The US Navy could have their own version of that.

Man I thought the companies that hold legal rights of those medias (movies and shows and games) have some special deals with the army. They should!

But how can airlines have almost every movie, TV Show and music album on their airplanes?

I recently flew on long flight with Qatar Airways and their library is massive. Almost any movie, show or album I could think of was in there

Why wouldn't it be possible to individually pre-purchase media before deployment?

Purchased (i.e. not rented) media on at least iTunes/Apple TV/Apple Music/Kindle etc. are usable offline indefinitely.

>The point is that there should be no wifi at all during these deployments

You seriously expect a bunch of ~20-year-old people to go without internet access for 6-9 months at a time? Good luck with recruiting.

Yes? These people are supposed to go fight wars for us and defend our freedom... I would expect them to be making a lot of sacrifices, the lack of Internet being a relatively minor one.

How many sacrifices would you make for $30,000 a year?

The current bonus for Air GUARD is $50k. Your 30k is way off not to mention GI Bill and VA coverage for life.

And yes, I expect “oh gosh we might not have internet” to be something the military can handle.

> GI Bill and VA coverage for life

Yeah, sounds good until you see in practice how so many veterans are forgotten, let alone the millions without any healthcare at all. Healthcare should be a human right for everyone.

What years did you serve?

I served from 1998 to 2005. You only get "VA for life" if you incur a permanent service-connected disability. Everyone else who uses VA pays for it and are prioritized lower than disabled veterans. Retirees do not have access to VA care unless they too have a disability.

$50k on a four year contract. That extra $12.5k helps, but the total comp is still way below a civilian job that typically has better work life balance and better working conditions.

> VA coverage for life

How much is this actually worth? If you have a full time job, you'll get insurance through the job. If not, you'll likely qualify for Medicaid. Here in California half the residents get free health insurance via Medicaid

You think people enlist for the money?

You are also overestimating the salary of a fresh enlistee. Everyone below E-3 makes less than 30k

Hence the inability to source recruits. Easier to work at Home Depot or Target.

($30k/year is ~$15-16/hr)

https://www.defense.gov/News/News-Stories/Article/article/36...

The article you linked cites competitive pay as reason to join…

It cites a variety of reasons why they are having issues, but pay isn’t one of them.

> The causes of the recruiting challenges "are complex and multifaceted," Vazirani said. They include:

> A strong economy, which has resulted in many more options for young people.

Additional citation:

https://www.aei.org/research-products/report/mcdonalds-or-th...

> McDonald’s or the Army? A California Case Study

> On measures that often matter most to military recruits, such as cash compensation, the military is falling behind civilian wages.

> The need for a large increase in junior enlisted wages becomes apparent when one considers two issues: the looming demographic cliff for America’s youth and competition from the labor market. According to the College and University Professional Association for Human Resources, it is projected that between 2025 and 2029, the US will see its population of 18-year-olds drop from 9.4 million to roughly 8 million, a 15 percent decrease.

and home depot stock has been going up steadily

Another poster posted this link, but I'll post it again: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39169676

If you think it's so important, why aren't you making this sacrifice? The Navy already can't meet its recruitment goals. Where exactly do you think all these selfless, freedom-defending 18-year-olds willing to go without internet are going to come from?

I would if I could but time, age, and circumstances prevented it.

I just think "not having internet" is very low on the list of concerns, and if it isn't, maybe those people need to re-evaluate their situation and priorities.

You are on a ship, where you can't visit friends or family and loved ones, where you have given up your rights and freedom, your choice about anything you consume or do, and you might literally not make it back home.

I think the recruitment goals are caused by other things.

If you think constant recreational internet access is necessary to live a worthwhile and tolerable life, you would probably benefit from a pause in recreational internet use.

There's surveys people would rather give up food, alcohol, socialization, sex, basic hygiene etc than internet. It's crazy but it's increasingly not a small sacrifice if navy wants billets filled by newer gens.

I joined the Navy in 94 (got out in 98). Reading these comments is giving me PTSD. I still had to mail letters and remember my calling card number to make calls when I got into port. That was the only way I could stay connected with home.

The fact that people serving in the military get ANY connection is blowing my mind right now. Especially given the operational tempo I am assuming they have to deal with day in and day out. I know for me every other day was a 21-hour day. Thinking about having internet while forward deployed just sounds exhausting.

> seriously expect a bunch of ~20-year-old people to go without internet access for 6-9 months at a time?

Yes, we generally want mental stability in the people manning our war machines. (Also discipline.)

Are you seriously willing to volunteer, or is this expecting that others step up where you’d fail?

It’s awfully easy to demand expectations from others behind the safety and comfort of a desk.

> is this expecting that others step up where you’d fail?

This is a nonsense argument. I’m not willing to go med school, that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t require it for doctors.

A fighting force addicted to their phones is vulnerable. You can’t have the first time your Navy goes cold turkey on a psychological dependence be during combat.

Fine, if you want to prevent sailors from having modern internet access, then you just need to accept you're going to have a very small Navy and plan accordingly, because very few young people are going to want to join. You can't force people to agree with your opinion.

Perhaps you could convince the Navy to open their recruitment to the 55+ age segment.

That's quite the hyperbole - I'm pretty sure internet access is a secondary concern at best, when deciding to join the Navy.

Sailors are giving up a lot more in terms of personal life, fixating on internet access as a dealbreaker is such an odd take.

Recruitment is down because one key demographic is no longer signing up. WiFi speeds are the least of that demographic's concerns.

I think what a lot of people are missing is that there is HUGE operational security issue with military using social media and the internet while deployed.

The lack of general internet availability onboard ships is a feature, not a bug. There are a million and one ways that opsec failures could happen accidentally, let alone through malicious code, devices or people.

Everyone I know who went to sea had a hard drive full of movies for trading around. There are plenty of ways to keep yourself entertained at sea. Leaking intel isn't a good one.

Not to mention the opsec failure of the starlink antenna continuously broadcasting the ship's location during its deployment.

SAR sats capable of tracking ships (or even cars) have been around for decades.

If the Navy provided a similar service, they could fully control the time and manner in which is used.

Most of the time these ships are just floating around doing nothing particularly important or sensitive.

The command could enable and disable internet access in response to operational security requirements, as part of regular exercises, or distribute access on the basis of some kind of reward or punishment.

Those very same electronic-warfare concerns might be what's preventing that, barring something really fancy like hyper-directed satellite communication using lasers etc.

Considering that "streaming movies" figured prominently in the illicit data stream, I would strategically reframe the problem like so:

"America's excessively-restrictive copyright laws are putting our troops in danger!!!1"

Clearly, the only possible choice is for Congress to make explicit and broad copyright exemptions for public libraries, and then put one on the ship. :D

On the one hand I’d love to be a vendor to make deployments suck less and more entertaining for servicemen.

On the other hand I don’t want to deal with procurement.

Video disks might not be superduper convenient; I don't know what kind of leisure devices navy peeps have, but you don't need a copyright exemption to lend them. If you don't mind tossing the cases, binder sheets for discs are pretty high density.

Those portable DVD players were hot items on the ship

Related: The US Navy Is Going All In on Starlink https://www.wired.com/story/us-navy-starlink-sea2/

Meanwhile, second paragraph of the article:

> For a variety of reasons, including operational security, a crew’s internet access is regularly restricted while underway, to preserve bandwidth for the mission and to keep their ship safe from nefarious online attacks.

This is not a case of failing to serve a fucking market. Holy shit.

It literally is, as others have elaborated on: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41441755

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