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Comment by arcbyte | Hacker News Reader

I hear people say this bit then I see those same people go and buy Teslas anyway. The real reason Tesla is suffering is because they've not delivered on innovation, quality, or price in a long time.

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>The real reason Tesla is suffering is because they've not delivered on innovation, quality, or price in a long time.

Haha what. Price has dropped, quality increased, their self driving tech recently had a step change in functionality. I don't really think Tesla is suffering but I think most of these narratives are in peoples heads and don't reflect reality.

I’m personally unconvinced. I test drove some current models a few days ago. Some observations:

1. They have cut costs (or adjusted style?) in highly dubious ways. The forward/reverse selector is gone in most new models, replaced by a swipe zone on the touchscreen that is only present some of the time. The 3 and Y require looking far from the road to see whether you’re signaling left or right — coupled with the turn signal stalk not physically staying in place when signaling, there is no good way to tell the current state of the car.

2. Self driving has taken a step change, IMO into the uncanny valley. A couple years ago, FSD was bad and could maybe go a block or two between failures. Now it can go multiple miles before it screws up dramatically. This seems quite dangerous — it’s hard to be ready to rescue the car when you don’t expect it to mess up.

My overall impression was that (a) new Teslas felt like video games, not cars and (b) the older models, circa 2020, with new software seem genuinely superior to current models.

I have an old Tesla that I like quite a lot. Even notwithstanding Elon’s behavior, I do not want a new Tesla.

P.S. has anyone seriously contemplated the way that water drains from the Cybertruck hood? If they copy that design to other models, I can only imagine they will have huge upcoming warranty/rework/lemon law costs.

> Price has dropped, quality increased

Has it though? Look at what a mess the Cybertruck is. Price is nearly double what was originally promised, quality is the lowest of any vehicle on the US market.

What are you talking about lol. It's best selling car in the world over 100k and widely loved

They’ve sold 16k according to this and the inventory stacking up suggests they aren’t getting 80k more sales very quickly.

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/tesla-...

That's also how I interpreted the parent (over 100k sold), but the intended meaning does appear in that article:

>Cybertruck sold nearly 4,800 units in July - its best month yet and making it by far the best-selling vehicle in the U.S. priced over $100,000

Ah, that makes sense on second read. Thanks!

proof?

And a technical sense yes but the only new model they’ve released recently is the cyber truck. Otherwise their sedans and crossovers outwardly appear to be basically the same thing they were selling in 2012. Meanwhile, BMW has a fleet of eight different electric vehicles, with more modern styling, leather, and just the ability to differentiate. Of course, Tesla is well into the black on their models whereas I doubt the BMW will get out of the red anytime soon.

The new Model 3 is new and has lots of interior features not found in competitors' cars of the same price range (ventilated and heated rear seats, screen for rear occupants, ambient lighting, Autopilot as standard, etc).

It’s also missing features that everyone else has (handles for entry/exit, a dashboard instrument cluster, lots of interior storage, support for physical keys, AirPlay / Android Auto, a forward/reverse selector, etc).

More models is worse. Anyways theres two mass market cars, one got a refresh recently the other next year

True, but it’s a numbers game. If there are 5 electric cars on the market, 2 are Teslas and the others are Nissan Leaf comparables then Tesla will get a lot of sales.

If there are 80 different models on the market and Tesla makes 5 models… that’s a tiny percentage of the choice that consumers have to pick from.

There's a lot of models of laptops and yet people still choose the Macbook

Huh? The model 3 didn't come out until 2017 and the model Y came out in 2020. That's literally just four years ago - not 2012.

I own a 2019 model 3 and will be replacing it with a 2024. In those 5 years, it's accumulated a bunch of improvements. I don't exactly have a changelog to work with, but here's what I can think of off the top of my head:

  - more powerful rear motor, 10% faster 0-60, breaking 10s quarter mile
  - track mode v3
  - heat pump
  - matrix headlights
  - adaptive suspension w/ frequency response suspension dampers
  - ryzen media control unit
  - triple pane glass
  - heated steering wheel
  - sport seating
  - ventilated seats
  - usb-c ports
  - rear entertainment system
  - HW4
  - updated wheels/tires
  - exterior styling updates (front bumper, non-chrome handles, etc...)
  - interior styling updates (LED lighting, carbon fiber dash, etc...)

Oh, and there's also the fact that I'm only paying 70% of what I did the first time around (inflation adjusted).

I’m mostly referring to the design language. The newest Model 3 refresh looks a lot like the previous Model 3, which looks a lot like a shorter Model S. Then look at the visual difference between Lexus, BMW, Mercedes, Mazda. Tesla has improved their vehicles a lot, but they’re all still Teslas and some people prefer more X, or more Y.

With that “triple pane glass” (which I’m pretty sure is laminated glass, not insulated glass), keep in mind a little design issue common to every Tesla ever made: the complete lack of any non-electrical way to open a door from outside. If there’s an electrical failure and someone needs rescuing from the car at all quickly, one needs to break a window. If all the window glass is laminated, this is not so easy.

There are stories of people getting out of a Tesla to help their kids out, closing the driver door before opening the back door, and having the electrical system die before opening the rear door. Whoops!

Yes, I suppose if

  - after ignoring the persistent warning you had days in advance that the 12v is dying
  - you lose power in the exact few seconds between
    - first securing every vehicle door
    - and then proceeding to open any other door
  - and there's another passenger inside
  - and they are also incapable of operating a door

then you will have to either jump your 12v or otherwise somehow unlock your door. The odds are diminishingly small given all of those factors, but wait there's also more:

  - You don't have all the accidental 12v drains that happen in other vehicles (lights, accessories, etc... accidentally left running)
  - The 12v is constantly replenished from the main battery, rather than a more unreliable alternator

So, I suppose there's this and then there are also the odds that your passenger is immediately struck by lightning as they exit the vehicle. At least in the former unlikely scenario, emergency responders can help you out with relative ease and little harm.

This may be unlikely, but there are actual reports of this happening:

https://www.popsci.com/technology/tesla-lock-issue/

I have also been (briefly) locked out due to what may have been RFI. Teslas are entirely dependent on radio to unlock the doors from outside.

I'm not a "car person", so forgive me if this is wildly off, but it always seemed like Tesla was going for the market segment of "not super rich, but wealthy enough to afford luxury"... That is, it's been positioned as a 'luxury' brand. Dropping prices doesn't seem like it would be productive in that context. (Quality improvements, as you mentioned, certainly will, tho.)

> their self driving tech recently had a step change in functionality

Can you please expound on this? What does this mean in more concrete terms?

Better at self driving. A lot longer in miles per critical intervention

I really want this narrative to be true because I actually do like Teslas, but I can’t find any evidence for any of your claims.

The step-change is real, and a lot of people don't know that Tesla now has the best self-driving ability out of all the competition. But that's only true on 4th gen hardware, and unfortunately that represents a minority of the vehicles sold to date.

Mercedes is taking legal liability for their L3 system. That's better than Tesla

GM's supercruise allows safe hands free driving as a L2 system. That's better than Tesla

Waymo is operating a true L4 system in multiple markets. That's better than Tesla.

Tesla has a better than average L2 system in autopilot. They have a downright dangerous L2 system in FSD that through its very design encourages unsafe driving habits. It lulls drivers into a false sense of security, but FSD can still hand control to the driver at the very last moment when they are unprepared to safely operate a vehicle.

Research has shown the L2 systems that border on L3 capability are dangerous, which is why all of the competition is staying well clear of that design and yet Tesla is forging ahead. There are times when going against the grain is a path to innovation, like Tesla using thousands of small cells to deliver viable BEVs. Or SpaceX using fast iteration on cheap reusable rockets. This isn't one of those cases as research has shown this pathway is not just non-viable, it's a safety risks to the public. There is a reason everyone else is working on L3 and L4 and developing it under carefully controlled testing conditions and methodologies. Tesla just slaps 'beta' on it and sends 4000 lbs of steel out hoping it doesn't run anyone over. When SpaceX rockets blow up during testing no one gets hurt. That is not true of FSD development.

I love my Tesla, but FSD is dangerous and the marketing was well into scam territory. There is a reason NHTSA and the FTC both have gotten involved.

FSD literally yells at you if you look away for more than 2-3 seconds. it's much safer than not

In my very recent test drive, it (a) flashed a message that it couldn’t tell whether I was looking at the road because I was wearing sunglasses and would continue operating anyway and (b) very nearly caused a collision due to an inappropriate maneuver in an intersection.

For an optimal driver-assisted recovery in the latter incident, I needed to have been paying rather close attention to the navigation, the lane lines, and surrounding vehicles, starting before the incident, and I needed to take a rather fast and considered action. It was dicey. But this would have been a complete nonissue if I were _actually driving the car_, because that’s how humans work. The middle ground of not driving but being ready to override instantly is simply not how humans work.

Actual studies have shown autopilot and fsd are at best average on safety. Given it spends an outsized amount of time limited access roads it's actually worse than manual driving for safety.

>best self-driving ability

That's a useless superlative unless it's level 5.

Why? Monitoring FSD is noticeably less stressful than driving a normal car.

Is it?

You always know what you're are doing next.

No it sells cars and adds to margin right now

No they just released 12.5 to hw3 yesterday

I imagine they have distilled the 12.5 model to fit on the hw3. I will wait to see how it compares, with Tesla sometimes the results are honestly hilarious, "move fast and break things" but on a nearly 2 ton vehicle.

I propose: the actions of the owner/CEO is partially responsible for that

CEOs tend to claim all the success so it's fair to blame them for all the failure.

>The real reason Tesla is suffering is because they've not delivered on innovation, quality, or price in a long time.

Isn't that also because of the actions of its owner?

This seems in direct contrast to reality. The long-range RWD model 3 (360mi of range) is available for $35K (after federal tax credit). That's more bang-for-the-buck than I've seen for any car in my lifetime. I'm not aware of any class competitor that's even mildly close.

A $42k brand new car is only accessible by the upper middle class. We need a Ford fiesta equivalent model.

With the current reputation, who wants to work for them? Of course some might support it, but it must seriously limit candidates. Not a surprise they don't deliver. Of course one can always ask, what was first, chicken or egg...

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