Comment by entrepy123 | Hacker News Reader

Comment by entrepy123 | Hacker News Reader

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> The biggest challenge, then, lies in re-imagining applications like Google Docs

This is a big one for me. AN APPEAL: Does know here know of a FOSS that offers an equivalent "experience" (visual appeal, time latency) to Google Docs and Google Sheets? Pretty please?

To explain, I have tried NextCloud-based Collabora and OnlyOffice. Neither comes close to the Google Docs & Sheets "real-timeness" and "visual acceptability".

To explain, this is less a rant and more an explanation, so bear that in mind please: For FOSS like Collabora and OnlyOffice, when "actually used" with the intention of replacing "Google Docs and Google Sheets", both

(1) the literal edit-lag (click, type, enter, wait, see screen update) and also

(2) the looks-bad (ugly dark rectangles, fonts, etc.)

are showstoppers, especially when combined.

There are things the FOSS software tries, to work around these issues best as possible. For example, one mode "runs" the doc on the server and hence sends changes to cloud first, hence the lag, while another mode save changes locally since it "runs" in the browser, but then isn't as real-time (if at all) for "other users" . And neither of these issues addresses the simple visual-appearance issues (painting a spreadsheet that doesn't hurt one's eyes).

If there is a FOSS Google Docs & Sheets replacement that is "good enough", the above description in mind, please, pray tell. It need not be feature-complete. Just replicating a Word and Excel '97 type of usability, but self-hostable FOSS with "real-time collaboration that is rather seamless, i.e. not noticeably bad an any way that interferes with actually using it", would be a most amazing find, IMO.

Thanks.

> an equivalent "experience" (visual appeal, time latency) to Google Docs and Google Sheets?

When people say something like this, in my experience they will not be satisfied with anything but a high quality, nearly visually identical knockoff of the product that they're used to, and, after complimenting it, they'll find some intangible reason to dismiss the knockoff (at the least, for being "just a knockoff.")

> (2) the looks-bad (ugly dark rectangles, fonts, etc.)

You may think your "looks bad" is universal, but that's an illusion caused by using the exact same products from the same product lines as the people around you. "Looks bad" is an unfalsifiable excuse. You know you shouldn't be selling yourselves to these companies, but you have to figure out a way to blame it on the only people offering you a way out.

> (painting a spreadsheet that doesn't hurt one's eyes)

How fragile are we? Your eyes hurt from spreadsheets and word processors.

> the above description in mind, please

Nobody has time to figure out what you think looks bad, especially when whatever the current dominant, consumer-hostile product is fits the bill. Just use Google Docs and Google Sheets, and don't feel guilty for not being someone you're not.

> When people say something like this, in my experience they will not be satisfied with anything but a high quality, nearly visually identical knockoff of the product that they're used to, and, after complimenting it, they'll find some intangible reason to dismiss the knockoff (at the least, for being "just a knockoff.")

Because the small details actually matter in the experience.

Take Mastodon for example: I can barely see a visual difference after a repost in the icon because the "active" and "inactive" colors are very VERY similar to each other, and there is no change in the number next to the repost icon either. As a result I have to very carefully go near the screen before I repost something, and that makes a pretty annoying experience.

UX/UI in general is the largest issue that FOSS projects have, because the people actually knowing their shit are expensive to hire and the experiments needed to figure out what works better cost serious money if you want to go beyond "run a/b tests and piss the hell out of your users who are unwittingly being used as guinea pigs in a code farm".

> Because the small details actually matter in the experience.

Since when has a large company actually cared about those details?

The last time Microsoft cared was the late 00s. By 2010, Microsoft's UI decisions were squarely in the "doesn't make any sense" camp. Today, they've almost finished removing the last of those sensible late-90s UI decisions (which were, I will note, thoroughly researched), in favour of… vibes? A/B testing? I'm not really sure.

The last time Google cared was around the same time: late 00s, early 2010s. Then they killed Google Specialized Search, flattened their logo, flattened Android 5's UI (the beginning of the end for non-power-users being able to find their way around), and proceeded to flatten everything in sight. Skeuomorphism is a dirty word.

I've seen the same trends from Twitter, Facebook… actually, every big tech property except facebook.com, which has somehow managed to keep its 00s-chic multiple-window interface and colour scheme. If not for the News Feed, it might actually be one of the more usable social media sites!

> UX/UI in general is the largest issue that FOSS projects have

Couldn't agree more! As a FOSS developer[1] that tries to strive for good UX/UI in my apps.

[1] https://www.notes-foss.com/

Thank you for all your hard work. It is truly appreciated!

Thanks a lot!

Nice project! Two bits of feedback regarding your pricing page: 1) you have a typo: "signle" 2) I would left-align your lists (those that start with checkmarks)

Whoops, thanks! Regarding no. 2, they are left aligned but I decreased their padding now, should look better.

I don't know if these will suit the latency requirements that you're outlining, but they might very well be what you're looking for.

https://etherpad.org/

https://ethercalc.net/

Thanks. Yes, Etherpad is the best example with good responsiveness/latency/multi-user experience that I knew of. I had thought Etherpad was too lightweight/minimal, though.

Looking now, I didn't realize Etherpad currently has so many plugins (for things like fonts, etc.). Going to try to customize it and see how it goes. Thanks!

Wow, ethercalc.net might just work, too. Gonna have to give that a real try. Seems there are some long open issue and no recent updates as at https://github.com/audreyt/ethercalc but, it still might be better than alternatives.

Thanks, really!

In the meantime, one could stream a desktop app to a browser that are both local.

This is what you get if you run BrowserBox on your device. You could also self host BrowserBox on your own VPS. Then you have data syncing without needing to be signed in to Google because your data is on your own server, accessible anywhere.

Also we specifically license it free for personal non commercial use.

If you wanted to do this personally for commercial stuff, you can purchase a yearly or perpetual license currently at around $80 and $250 respectively

Most of our clients are organizations, but we do have a few individuals who have personal licenses.

That would be interesting for personal use or if tolerable to the household, household use.

Thanks. What makes you say it would be interesting? I like to understand what different people find useful in it.

A streamed desktop app does not provide first-class collaboration, where multiple users can simultaneously edit the same document.

My problem with this is that the opensource desktop apps are often unusable, for example LibreOffice Calc.

I use it all the time, every day. Better than "Sheets".

what do you find unusable about it or what do you think is better?

Google docs, office 365 etc.. are all trash. I nobody who uses them to edit documents.

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