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Comment by stoperaticless | Hacker News Reader

I understand capitalism as “things can be owned and sold” + “you can profit from investment”.

> it's a single possible pareto equilibrium

I propose that those other equilibriums’ stability depended on at least one of these: a) small population size&density b) violent totalitarian enforcement c) indoctrination in caste system and/or religion d) no contact with capitalism

> Capitalism is not an expression of human nature

Ownership is very natural for humans (2 year old already declares “it’s mine”).

Finally, capitalism is just one part what makes a society. I bet there are quite significant societal differences between Sweden vs US now vs US 70 years ago.

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> Ownership is very natural for humans (2 year old already declares “it’s mine”).

The idea that something a two year old does is a suitable basis for the foundations of society as a whole is both hilarious and terrifying. Two year olds are tyrants.

Yup. That is _part_ of human nature.

That’s why power corrupts.

Both capitalism and socialism are spectrums of systems rather than single monoliths so any definition is going to be fuzzy. However, it's probably useful to specifically say that in capitalism specifically private property and/or capital can be owned. Generally speaking, socialist systems still allow personal property to be owned, they just place restrictions on the ownership or private property and/or capital.

It's also probably worth considering that socialism doesn't necessarily have to forbid ownership of private property or capital outright. It could, for example, mean that revenue/profit/income derived from private property or capital is taxed more highly than revenue/profit/income derived from labor.

> Both capitalism and socialism are spectrums of systems rather than single monoliths

Seems a reasonable and useful way to define it.

> any definition is going to be fuzzy.

Definitely! (That is why I preemptively added my attempt at the definition, to avoid a discussion past each other)

probably a lot of people are using terrible definitions of 'capitalism' such as '“things can be owned and sold” + “you can profit from investment”', which explains why these discussions are full of so much nonsense

wikipedia's current definition says:

Capitalism is an economic system based on the private ownership of the means of production and their operation for profit. Central characteristics of capitalism include capital accumulation, competitive markets, price systems, private property, property rights recognition, self-interest, economic freedom, meritocracy, work ethic, consumer sovereignty, profit motive, entrepreneurship, commodification, voluntary exchange, wage labor and the production of commodities. In a market economy, decision-making and investments are determined by owners of wealth, property, or ability to maneuver capital or production ability in capital and financial markets—whereas prices and the distribution of goods and services are mainly determined by competition in goods and services markets.

this is not a perfect definition but it is a much better one

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