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It can't be treated like drug addiction, though. Most people I know have a _relatively_ healthy relationship with alcohol or cannabis. The addicts, especially of hard drugs, are the odd ones out.

With phones, and before that music, and before that newspapers, it's a social norm. If you are trying to talk to people you feel like the weirdo.

And I get it, cause I don't like making myself vulnerable. I wish I talked to strangers but it's hard to undo a whole childhood of "Don't stare, don't bother them, keep to yourself, everyone loves how quiet you are, you're so mature for your age because you never talk, etc."

I would argue it should be handled exactly like drug addiction ought to be. That is, as a widespread medical issue. But it is more complex than drug abuse due to interaction with people expressly being part of the equation. One's phone is ever available and there are very very few places indoors or outdoors that it isn't considered socially acceptable to use their smartphone for social media. The same is not true for alcohol or cannabis. Most people won't simply walk down the street or hang in a park smoking or drinking. Phone addiction is far more visible.

That's fair, I guess we agree that an epidemic of addiction is treated different than a couple cases of one-off addicts

Hm. In Iowa it's thought that 10% of the customers of liquor stores buy 90% of the product moved through the door.

That's not 10X the general population. That's 81X. One in nine drink 9X what nine other people do.

So, you have a relationship with alcohol, it's likely not a healthy one. It's addiction, all the way down.

I'm confused, you paint a picture in which the majority drink moderately and then say "likely not healthy" but in your example 90% of the customers, the vast majority, don't have an unhealthy relationship with alcohol.

So if you have a relationship with alcohol it is most likely a healthy one, and it's "addiction all the way down" for... a minority.

Yeah, well, that majority is likely buying alcohol for events, for celebrations. Not so much a 'relationship with alcohol' as a party favor. Don't drink anything at all the rest of the year.

You have a favorite drink, a regular bar, a liquor store that knows you - you are probably one of the ten percent. Believe it or not, most of us don't go to a bar most months of the year.

> Don't drink anything at all the rest of the year.

That doesn't really match my observations ,or NIH data https://www.niaaa.nih.gov/alcohols-effects-health/alcohol-to...

There the majority (18 and over, and slightly under 50% of 12 and over) report consumption in the last month.

Of those, a bit under 7% report "heavy usage". You can look up the definitions, but doesn't include e.g. "usually has a beer or two with dinner".

The category you describe definitely exists, but I don't think it's anywhere close to a majority, and there are also at least a couple reasonable categories between that problematic or abusive consumption.

When I'm out at a sit-down restaurant, I always make a mental note of everyone who has their phone out on the table. It's usually 50-50. Not necessarily using them, but within view, as if they're waiting for something else instead of prioritizing the people who took the time to be physically around them in the same place and time.

No wonder lots of people feel disconnected. They forgot how to connect in even the most conducive settings for it.

Personally, when I'm in this situation, my phone is out and face down on the table to avoid the discomfort of it digging into me from my pocket. I've also noticed that other people use their phone less when I explicitly take it out and put it to the side. Also, even though I take it out, I never use it unless the conversation has asked for it, like searching an answer for something.

Sometimes I do that because it's just uncomfortable to sit with my phone in my pocket. I agree it's rude to use your phone while you're dining or conversing with a group.

Counter point - phones are so large now I don't always want it in my pocket when seated.

People take phones and sometimes even wallets out of their pocket when they sit down for comfort.

Some people struggle with social situations and have made about as much progress there as they're going to.

Still other people struggle with social situations, sometimes.

I'm in the latter group; I rarely-to-never eat out. It's exhausting to put on a convincing production of Pretending To Enjoy Myself.

Using a device to ease that burden seems super reasonable to me.

Not only that, but also in people's hands. I've seen on many occasions a couple sitting together at a two-seat table, obviously they're together for dinner, both silently scrolling on their smartphones. Not even saying a word to each other. It's eerie and creepy, like something out of Black Mirror. Last time I pointed this out on HN, most repliers were either defending this behavior or being sarcastic with "Well why don't you walk over and tell them how to live their lives!"

This has kind of been normalized!

> I've seen on many occasions a couple sitting together at a two-seat table, obviously they're together for dinner, both silently scrolling on their smartphones.

Once upon a time, being together without having to talk was a measure of closeness. Relationships that achieved this were venerated.

That ideal aside: Proximity itself nurtures trust and feelings of safety.

It seems sad that we could miss examples of bonding because they don't fit our relationship model.

I've had relationships where I just liked spending time with the person, even when just sitting and not talking, but I've also sat around on my phone not talking to people, and it's not at all the same. When you're on your phone, you're in your own little world trying to ignore everyone. When you're such close friends with someone that you even like sitting around and not talking, it's because you want to spend time with them so much that you want to just be around them even if there's no real "excuse" to hang out.

I’m old enough to remember a time where you would see couples on the table next to you that wouldn’t talk the entire night but listen in to other table’s conversations.

Smartphones make not working social relationships more visible, but I doubt they’re the root cause.

I will forget my phone if I’m having an excellent live experience, eg a great conversation.

I'm not saying smartphones are never a problem. However, look at old photos of the bus or subway in the USA or UK from decades ago. Passengers were not having social hour - they were minding their own business, reading a newspaper, listening to music, staring out the window...

I'm more interested in the question of whether technology tethers us home more strongly, instead of venturing outside of our homes.

>they were minding their own business, reading a newspaper, listening to music, staring out the window

Much better cognitively than endlessly scrolling Instagram reels YouTube shorts that are algorithms trying to keep you hooked. Sometimes I’ve seen people just open random apps and close and do nothing. It’s like a habit they are unable to let go.

Phones must be orders if magnitudes more common than newspapers. It seems that no matter where you are in the world, everyone from age 12 and up has one on them 24/7 and uses it as soon as they have 20 seconds to spare. Newspapers were something only a few adults would use, and you usually have read all the interesting parts by the time you get your second coffee.

I agree that the tendency for wanting distractions has always been present in humans, but the hyper connectivity of today's world really taps into it unlike anything else we had before. It's a different quality.

Of course, many people did read books and newspapers on the subway 20 years ago.

A significant fraction also did speak to one another sometimes, and engaged in spontaneous conversations, too.

That fraction has dropped to close to ~0% today.

I've noticed the same thing even on airplanes, where everyone is offline. Unfortunately in that case almost everything is either sleeping, consuming corporate entertainment, or reading books.

BUT there are always a few people who are open to talking. I prefer talking to being on the phone when I'm in flight. I get to have a long conversation about 1/4 of flights.

If you read old books like Pilgrim's Progress you see people walking towards the same town together, and they always struck up a conversation. Look at the Canterbury Tales: some really great literature that consists just of fellow travelers having a storytelling contest! We are missing so much humanity in our kosher lives.

At least in the US, most aircraft have internet now - many people are not offline. And even if they're not paying for the internet service, a number of airlines deliver their free entertainment services through personal devices - so they may be watching the same sort of content that would be in a seatback TV on other airlines.

Speaking personally:

I also tend to just load entire books onto my phone for flights. Reading on a small screen doesn't bother me.

With regards to talking - I like talking to strangers. However, the plane is one of the few places I try to avoid striking up conversations. People around me having loud (and it is loud, because talking quietly on a plane is impossible) conversations for hours about nonsense is something incredibly annoying to be on the receiving end of. While I enjoy actually having a conversation, I also know that by doing it I'll be annoying a half-dozen other people not involved in it but forced to listen to it in an environment where they can't do anything to escape it, and it feels rude to do that - especially since I don't enjoy when I'm in their position.

Does anyone remember when the TVs on airplanes hung down from the ceiling and there was only one or maybe two movies on the flight? There was either nothing on the back of the seat, or there was a very expensive satellite telephone.

I still do what I did then - read. I just read on a Kindle now instead of a stack of paperback books bought at the airport.

A fond memory I have from about 25 years ago when I was still a kid:

I was flying economy on KLM with my mom and dad, family vacation to Europe. About a few hours prior to landing, the crew put on some Mr. Bean movies. Back then at least on that flight as far as I can still remember, there weren't seatback screens; only those dropdown TV screens on the ceiling above the aisles, so everyone had to watch Mr. Bean.

Well tell you what, Mr. Bean is bloody hilarious and I was a kid. I couldn't help but burst out laughing even though I knew it was bad manners, and in short order the entire cabin was laughing with me. That was a fun day.

If you like those kinds of storytelling-on-a-pilgrimage stories, I highly recommend Hyperion by Dan Simmons. A large part of the book consists of a group of pilgrims-of-sorts traveling together and sharing stories, which gradually help you understand what's really going on.

I apologize if this comes across as 'how dare you talk about pancakes when I prefer waffles', but I just want to mention that, like a lot of people, I destroyed my hearing when I was young and now I struggle to hear on busses and planes.

If someone talks to me on a plane I say "Sorry, my hearing is really bad", and its really embarrassing when they respond by speaking so loudly the whole plane can hear for the rest of the flight.

Hope this advances faster https://masseyeandear.org/news/press-releases/2023/04/mass-e...

Have you considered using hearing aids?

Yes, I've tried two different hearing aids, and they were both worse than useless. They often amplified the wrong voices in the crowd, and not even consistently. It was like listening to the radio and having someone constantly changing stations.

If you've got a recommendation for one that is able to identify which voice in the crowd I want amplified, I'd appreciate it!

I don’t have first hand experience, I just know someone who described a similar problem and then raved to me once they got hearing aids about how life changing they were for that problem.

It sounds like yours were trying to actively amplify certain voices? I wonder if that’s sounds good but doesn’t work sort of feature. Naively it seems like just shifting the volume on everything should work as long as the frequency curve matches the lost frequencies. The brain is what is separating the voices, not the ears.

I'm not perfect, but I do make a conscious effort to put away my phone when in transit or idling around. Not that it matters much as pretty much everyone else is stuck in their own little world. But I think it's better for my own health.

> How can you talk to someone when they aren’t even looking at you or paying attention ?

I'm talking to people constantly without looking at them. Some are loose ties like this one. But group chats, texts, Discord servers, even Facebook. Tons of 1:1 communication with people I see in person regularly. But also I don't have to see someone in person to have a real conversation. I'm often fully present with real people when on my devices, and I'm perfectly capable of dissociating while politely not touching my phone when I'm in a boring conversation with people standing next to me.

Sometimes I wonder if we wouldn’t be better off is someone EMP’ed the northern hemisphere and killed all mobile devices at the same time.

humans will always take the path of least resistance to spike domaine when given the option - that is why we banned drugs and most of these apps with short form info like tiktok, reels, instagram, twitter - these are pretty much like drugs. I wish i can just throw away my phone and live my life but 'being on' is just an expectation in todays world.