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Lesson I learned from this comment: you can dish out as much of heavy-handed advice as your heart desires, as long as you preface it with the phrase "things i've learned"

Yes I did not miss the irony :-)

You apparently fail to understand the humility of stating what one has learned vs telling someone else what to do. They are very very different things.

Or just say "IMHO"

> 3. Your spouse just wants to vent, UNLESS they say "fix it"

Or talk to your spouse, get to know them, and build a sense of what they absolutely need to know (e.g. you don't want or can't spend the rest of your life doing it for them and no one else will), what they don't need to care about, and what space of mind they're in.

You're hopefully stuck with them for a very long time, investing time and effort to understand them, and skipping the generic heuristics is probably the only advice needed.

Have you heard of the 6 geniuses? It is a book that proposes that there are 6 areas of "managing" one's self and others, and some are areas of genius and some are areas of frustration and some are competencies.

The book also proposes that spouses who are compatible tend to have complimentary areas of genius and frustration.

More to your point: if someone has an area of frustration to discern what course of action will fix, and you have that as an area of genius, then be kind about it as you probably got married because there are other ways you complement each other.

I haven't read the book, but can empathize with the complementary angle.

Yet it's just complex, and it's also a moving target. In particular, there will be areas where there's no way out of both being at least competent and self sufficient.

For instance if you live in the middle of nowhere with only a road connecting you to civilization, your partner giving up on driving can't just be a "frustration" area you cover with your "genius".

Same way if you live in the forest you won't get away with shouting and fainting every time you see a bug.

The partner might be there to help adapt, the most severe issues can be mitigated, but fundamentally there's no way out. (now I also assume most reasonable people won't just be there shouting "FIX IT"). And we're not counting the parts where both have it as frustration in the first place ("fix the printer" ?)

The "genius" vs "frustration" split looks to me decent for some cases, not good enough in others, and not applicable for the most critical stuff, with couples still needing to think long and hard about where they strike the balance on each of their areas.

>For instance if you live in the middle of nowhere with only a road connecting you to civilization, your partner giving up on driving can't just be a "frustration" area you cover with your "genius".

Different people are different. And not all people are reasonable. Some partners might really be like this, so if your partner is like this, you can either put up with it and do all the driving, or move someplace else. But the other thing to keep in mind is: you picked this partner. If your partner frustrates you this much, maybe you made a bad choice and should pick a different partner.

As someone who's had different partners in life, I highly encourage single people to be very careful about who they pick for their partner.

has this really worked for you? cause from my experience, not only is OP right, but you are are effectively telling your spouse that "we are serious business, pointless venting is not acceptable behaviour"

I highly recommend you to read this post on giving better advises: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41113807

I wasn't reacting on the venting part, but on the "fix it" bit, which gives a "you say jump I say how high" vibe.

We're all doing pointless venting, that's part of life.

Welli, we are not. Some people feel entitled to pointless venting and some even think listening quiet is what is what others should do. That's spoiled child behavior

A really simple way to bypass a lot of issues is simply to ask: "Do you want my advice?" And accept "No" if that's the answer.

Often, the answer is actually "Yes", and the same advice that would have been taken as criticism if given without consent, is accepted.

All unsolicited advice is taken as criticism. But there's no rule that you can't offer the opportunity to solicit advice.

Other ways of asking might be appropriate depending on the situation, like "Do you want to hear what I would do?" or "Either is okay; I just want to know: are you looking for solutions or are you looking to vent?"

"Do you want some advice?" sounds too condescending for my taste, both from the giver and the receiver. Having moved to the United States from a European country, I have discovered that there is a particular dance that most people do in the land of the free that takes away authenticity (not to be confused with being rude, impolite or, even worse, "brutal") and inserts a kind of artificial kindness or feigned interest in the fate of others. This is also what one observes when working in the corporate world: "If I understood you correctly", "let me unpack that"--the therapization of everyday life in which the rulers are the HR people.

Instead of the ballet of "do you want my advice," it would be better to switch to "I think one of the possible courses of action is," or "I have encountered something similar in the past and, at least in spirit, this is what I found helpful." Those are minor dances that tend to work because in any case, almost no one likes to be told "do this or do that" when the one carrying the message is not the one who will suffer the consequences of the wrong action.

> Instead of the ballet of "do you want my advice," it would be better to switch to "I think one of the possible courses of action is," or "I have encountered something similar in the past and, at least in spirit, this is what I found helpful."

Strong disagree--it has to be a question. The entire point of my post is:

1. Ask for consent before giving advice. 2. If they say no, don't give them the advice.

This isn't "artificial kindness or feigned interest in the fate of others"--I agree that exists in the US--it's a real question where the answer really does affect what you decide to do.

"Do you want my advice" = I know how to solve it, but maybe you don't (because you are incompetent, insecure, or not ready to know the "truth") want to solve it and it's okay for you to stay with your problems, your loss, I'm out.

> "Do you want my advice" = I know how to solve it, but maybe you don't (because you are incompetent, insecure, or not ready to know the "truth") want to solve it and it's okay for you to stay with your problems, your loss, I'm out.

No, that's not what that means.

Sure, some oversensitive people will interpret it that way. That's why I provided two other ways of asking the question. "Do you want my advice?" is okay for a lot of people, though; not everyone is so sensitive they'll take offense to that.

It has to be a question, though. And really, if someone is going to assume you think they're incompetent because you ask if they want advice, you think they won't assume you'll think they're incompetent when you say, "I think one of the possible courses of action is..."?

> All unsolicited advice is taken as criticism. But there's no rule that you can't offer the opportunity to solicit advice.

So true

> Your spouse does not want to know how it works so that they can fix it themselves next time, and their mental model is wrong and they don't care to correct it. Just listen, figure out what they want and do it yourself, and do it again next time even though it interrupted you and they could have fixed it themself.

Once upon a time I had someone that didn’t work this way. Only in hindsight is it apparent how much of an exception that was. I don’t know if it’s age or otherwise, but seeing someone solve their own problems is so much more satisfying than solving something for them. I think it’s an unhealthy dependency.

Absolutely 100%.

I learned to keep my mouth shut and my life improved exponentially, if only from the energy savings alone.

> 3. Your spouse just wants to vent, UNLESS they say "fix it" in which case they want you to fix it,

3a. When someone says "show me what I need to do" or similar, then they don't mean either "I need to vent" or "fix it for me".

They want to learn enough to take care of it themselves; and therefor fixing it for them - with the knowledge that the issue will recur and need the same conversation again - is a frustrating case of not listening to the real need.

> 2. Smart people want to solve their own problems. Don't offer solutions. No one will feel empowered or much of a sense of accomplishment implementing your solution. Instead tell them the challenges that they will face for various options and let them draw their own conclusions.

Boss: so, why are you recommending <thing>?

Me: someone in the Internet said it was a good idea. No, I don't know what criteria they were using to evaluate it. Or what else they considered. Or how well they understood what we're going to use it for.

---

But sure, say it's just about feelings and self-actualization and status games and nothing to do with trust and explainability.

You seem to have missed the point there. Your boss has already invited you as the expert ( hence the pay and responsibilities), and your boss does not want to solve his problem, he wants you to do it.

But sure, you can can take any random line of any text, make up a situation with a different context and ensure a different result than the author.

I was going to object to number three, considering my spouse and I are both engineers, but to be honest, almost all the time I do just want him to "fix it".

>>Put another way, unsolicited advice is unwelcome.

You can replace advice with help and it would still be true.

Mostly people need to do things and see for themselves. Experience is felt, it can't be explained or thought.

>>Your spouse just wants to vent

Most people want empathy, not help. Like they know what they are doing and why. They just want people to understand listen and atleast pretend to understand.

The opposite of this may be true.

1. If you are a doctor seeing another person give dangerous medical advice, it may be your civic and moral responsibility to intervene.

2. I’m smart and I have a lot of problems. Only some of them are interesting challenges (math problems… no hints!). The rest I don’t care about.

3. The only time my wife complains is when she wants a solution. Because she thinks complaining for no reason is for lazy people.

You can recast all your lessons learned in the form of dynamics instead of lessons, that’s what the author of the post did. Example: “I find it easier to learn from people when they speak of their beliefs in terms of structures and variables and forces.” That’s a true statement about me. That’s me hoping to help you without “giving advice.”

> 3. The only time my wife complains is when she wants a solution. Because she thinks complaining for no reason is for lazy people.

I want to offer a different perspective.

I sometimes complain that I live in an apartment that is too hot in the summer and lacks certain things like enough electric outlets and storage space. The rent is super cheap, so I will not move and houses are too expensive to buy. I also love living in that area cause my friends and job are near. I really don't want to hear people's advice, when; complain, because I've heard it all before and there is no solution to my problem that does not involve a ton of money.

I just want to complain because that and feeling empathy reduces stress and the keeps me healthy.

I hear you. My family and me do that, too.

Perhaps it's evident from the topic and tone when it's a cathartic complaint vs. an imperial complaint.

Unpacking #3 is fun. Like, yeah, often times people (not just spouses) want to vent, not receive actual advice. But "their mental model is wrong and they don't care to correct it"? That's unfair. Maybe they're just tired? Maybe your own mental model isn't the only correct one?

> even though it interrupted you and they could have fixed it themself.

Oh no, not being interrupted by having to help your partner!

I think #3 is self deprecating .

It’s clear this person has burnt their hand, and learned from it !

4. Your spouse wants to give advice.

(don't know how to fix this btw. It might be a boundary issue, it might be something to smile and accept, it might be an unresolvable relationship issue...)

Many times I've been invited as an expert - and I've always said - I'm no expert, but I guess I'm better than the average.

I give advice once - after it's on you - smart people listen - dumb people prefer to try on their own.

What I've seen in the past few years - regret is hard pill to swallow.

> 2. Smart people want to solve their own problems. Don't offer solutions. No one will feel empowered or much of a sense of accomplishment implementing your solution. Instead tell them the challenges that they will face for various options and let them draw their own conclusions.

Replace "smart" by "dumb" and I'll agree. You're not smart if you reject spoon-fed solutions purely for ego-related reasons.

Instead of dumb, maybe arrogance is closer to why people reject such solutions?

> It doesn't matter what your title is, how much expert education, training, or experience you have, or even what hard lessons that you have learned: you are not an "expert" in an area unless you are invited in as an "expert".

Not entirely on topic, but this makes 'experts' who have a large social media presence talking about the subject you are interested in far more likely to be invited while they might (and very often don't) know almost nothing about the subject, have no degrees (but often lie that they have) and made up their title(s). This trend is growing in the professional world. The amount of secops 'experts' I meet at companies who know nothing at all about this field besides the very basics they saw in a youtube video is incredible. I recognise them immediately as they talk too much and what they say sounds like hallucinating chatgpt (and I am not a security expert, but it intersects with what we do and need often). When I ask someone in the company (I get into companies via my own company to troubleshoot things, I don't work there, but I see a lot of them) they usually have something like 'but he is THE expert in the field on LinkedIn/Twitter (meaning, many followers and a lot of edgy shouting about the subject) so how can it be bad?'.

Anyway, you only have to watch some Joe Rogan lately to see where that is going quite rapidly. Grifter 'experts' supporting crazy grifters (yes, Terrence for instance) to make them more credible to both sell more grifter crap.

I find it very dangerous and i'm not the only one; non critical people may actually believe what these people peddle; a secops or devops that basically googles/chatgpts everything and comes with a plan cannot be good for the world now can it? If we (my company) need an expert on something, we call the university (of Delft or Amsterdam in our case as they are our alma maters) and ask which industry person with an actual degree and 10+ years industry experience we should ask for advice on xyz. Never failed us in the past 25 years; never had a twitter celeb over I am happy to say.

When you say spouse do you mean a male or female spouse? because the patterns of communication are very different between the two genders.