Hacker News Reader

Comment by cheeseomlit | Hacker News Reader

Had a somewhat similar experience in Houston (minus police), which seems to be a city whose infrastructure is comprised of one 9000-lane monstrosity of a freeway. I was staying in a hotel right across the street from the office I was working in, maybe a 3 minute walk. A coworker offered to give me a ride each morning, and when I mentioned I could just walk they said 'the only pedestrians around here are homeless people'. So I guess that's their general attitude about walking, which might explain the attention from police.

View on HN

When I lived in Houston I would bike to work occasionally but it’s not a pleasant thing to do 4-6 months out of the year. Even walking to the bus stop at 8am in the summer I would be sweating. People who harp on Houston for being designed around cars (notably the “Not Just Bikes” channel on YouTube) usually live somewhere like the Netherlands with moderate weather and never address just how uncomfortable it is to be outside in Houston half the year. It also rains heavily in Houston quite frequently (90 days of rain/year).

I would love more walkable infra but I don’t blame anyone for not wanting to walk in Houston.

A substantial contributor to that heat is asphalt and concrete though (absorbs heat and releases it at night). And to make it worse there's no tree cover. Winter is also more manageable if you don't have to wait 20 mins for a bus in an uncleared snowbank just because non-car mobility is second-class

True. Another issue with all the concrete is that it doesn't absorb rain and has made the constant flooding worse. Zero tree cover is also a shame, there are hundreds of miles of concrete bike and walking paths along the bayous that would be great for commuting but most of it has zero tree cover so you're just baking in the sun.

The older parts of Houston have massive oak trees that provide a lot of shade (and acorns the size of walnuts). But the older houses aren't large enough for modern Houstonians (roll your eyes here); when you tear it down to build a McMansion the trees also have to go.

The elementary school near my friend's house had a playground that was 100% shaded by just two massive trees. They tore the school down for a modern replacement. The new playground has no shade at all, not even those stretched fabric triangles you see all over the southern US.

Caring about nature that you can't shoot or eat is for pansy leftist tree-huggers. Especially if you work in a manly field full of manly men like construction. /s

This seems unnecessarily bait-y, but you can probably assume that the people who planted those trees in Houston weren't tree-huggers either, they were just practical. And lived in an era where "wasting money" wasn't as socially acceptable as it is now.

Before air conditioning shade from trees was one of the only ways to endure the heat. I bought a 70yo house with trees nearly on top of the house, and the old neighbors said it was intended to combat the heat.

As someone who grew up playing in the bayous out in the suburbs of Houston, even away from the concrete the humidity and heat are oppressive in the summertime.

Singapore, Kuala Lumpur, Montevideo, San Juan (PR) are all tropical cities hotter than Houston, roughly the same size, and are very walkable

I'm from Montevideo, I wouldn't call it "tropical" but yeah, compared to an US city it's absolutely a million times more walkable.

We do have humidity and heat and I don't enjoy it and I use A/C several months a year.

There's a big push for more cycling-centric and more cycling lanes, and the bus infrastructure is obviously a lot better than the US. I don't have a car by choice.

I haven't been to Houston but I have been to Dallas and it was an extremely frustrating experience and it feels like an awful soulless city to me.

Dallas’ big criticism from Texans (and especially Houstonians, there is a bit of a rivalry) is that it’s soulless… so you nailed it.

I don't know the distinct history of those cities but Houston's population didn't hit 1 million until the 1960s, nearly all of its growth has taken place in a car-centric world. At least 3/4 four of those cities have been around for a long time pre-car and I suspect weren't designed with cars in mind.

How about Miami, e.g Miami Beach and downtown Miami, both extremely walkable? Like Houston, Miami did not reach 1 million pop until the 60s.

Or Panama City, did not reach 1 mil until the 90s

And "designed with cars in mind" is part of the problem, is it not? Using that as a filter is like saying "there are no parking garages with good canoeing routes"

Depends on the time of year, I suppose.

https://www.google.com/search?q=miami+flooding&udm=2

More to the point, nearly all of that growth has taken place in an air-conditioned world. Urbanization of the U.S. South really only took off once the air-conditioner became mainstream.

Those other cities have a population that is adjusted to the heat - they grew up with it, their ancestors grew up with it, they're genetically and culturally adjusted to the climate. By contrast, the U.S. South includes a large number of immigrants who are only there because air conditioning exists. It's a mystery why anyone would want to walk around in 100 degree heat with 90% humidity, because they certainly wouldn't.

Singapore is no doubt developed in recent times and has one of the world’s best underground metro. It’s not for lack of cars in mind it looks the way it does. In fact the opposite, Singapore has a quota on total number of cars in the country, making other forms of transport a necessity to provide, including metro, buses, bike lanes, covered walkways.

2/4 had massive growth in the 50s/60s/70s (KL and Singapore). I'll give you Montevideo and San Juan, but let's not pretend it's just timing that made Houston the way it is. It's a matter of choices that were made, to prioritize car infrastructure over all else.

I’m from Malaysia and I can tell you barely anyone walks in the dense parts of cities. I do like walking but the smell of sewage and car exhaust is overwhelming. Much prefer the UK

Based on historical averages, none of these cities are hotter than Houston. They might have more humidity, but Houston averages are higher AND regularly experiences sustained daily highs during summer in excess of 100°F/38°C.

https://weatherspark.com/compare/y/9247~114655~27814~113829~...

I can't even fathom how those people can survive the heat and humidity let alone walk in it.

Humidity is the worst part, when it's hot but not so humid it's OK.

And at least here in Montevideo we're literally by the beach. I am two blocks away from being able to swim :)

I do complain a lot about the heat+humidity combination and I use A/C a lot.

Agreed. No matter how good the biking infrastructure in major cities in Japan is (and apparently it was good enough for me to see someone biking at almost any given moment, so I assume it was pretty good), I cannot fathom how people did it. You open a door to the outside, and you feel like you got blasted with a human-sized heatgun. Just standing outside for more than a few minutes, and you pretty much gotta take a shower after. And no, I am not ultra-sensitive to it, as I managed to survive 90F summers in Seattle with no AC just fine before.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9281079/

The simple answer is, you adapt (homeostasis)

Don’t worry, Japanese people complain about it all summer. You’re not alone!

Japan is also a very car-centric country. Most of the time you get to bike on the sidewalk, together with the people on foot.

You are very correct about biking on the sidewalk, but I am not going to lie, I was madly impressed how it created pretty much zero disturbance for pedestrians ever. Totally despite the fact that it was happening all the time.

Meanwhile, had plenty of occasional bicycle/scooter riders in Seattle basically destroying the flow of pedestrians on sidewalks.

Germany is the same way, the bike lane is often on the sidewalk, however it tends to be a very bike-friendly place

In Japan it wasn’t the case, it was straight up just people bicycling on the sidewalk in-between people walking. They just somehow figured out how to do it in a way that doesn’t disrupt the pedestrians, and I am still not sure how.

It does, people just don’t openly complain, much like any other problem - they either put up with it and say しょうがない or they complain in private or (often anonymously) online.

I am one of those annoyed people, I want bike lanes and I don’t understand why a place with so many riders is so anti-bike (aside from understanding the natural societal inclination to think that anything worth doing should be difficult, and made difficult if not).

I'm a biker and I want bike lanes too, so I don't need to dodge pedestrians. There is some bike infra here, but it's not nearly enough. And there's too many of those stupid painted "sharrows" that no biker with any sense uses because it's either next to too-fast traffic or blocked by parked vehicles.

I think the problem is just the politicians: they probably use cars and never bike or walk in these places.

I think the thing that makes it work the way it does is, as you say, people don't openly complain. They just get out of the way, or ignore the bikers (I prefer the latter as long as a bunch of them aren't blocking the whole sidewalk). In America, they'd be going full Karen and intentionally antagonizing the bikers, or trying to start fights with them, etc. Here, people seem to just recognize it's an imperfect situation, and put up with it instead of making a big deal out of it.

Heat and humidity comes after the decision to not walk and turn everything into roads and parking lots

I can guarantee you Houston was hot and humid well before cars existed.

lol there’s plenty of empty land around Houston that’s just as hot, I assure you

NotJustBikes went to Houston, tried to walk from the hotel to a suitcase shop 1-2km away, and found it too dangerous, not too hot. He doesn't say "everyone in Houston should walk everywhere all the time" he says "Houston is designed so you can't safely walk even if the distance is short and you want to".

> "I would love more walkable infra but I don’t blame anyone for not wanting to walk in Houston."

But the relevant part is people who do want to, but can't.

A few years ago I visited a company in New Jersey, in a business park just off the 1 - a bunch of office buildings and a business hotel in a little enclave.

I could see the office across the road from the hotel, but there was no easy way to get there on foot because there were no sidewalks, or indeed any other concessions to pedestrians. I had to walk through the car park, push through a hedge, climb down the grassy bank, and the do the same in reverse on the other side of the road. Reception had seriously recommended that I took a cab about 100 yards.

Even when the pedestrian infrastructure exists, it's not always good.

There's sidewalks and crosswalks between The Cupertino Hotel and One Infinite Loop, but they are terrifying to use because of how wide and busy that intervening junction is.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/3erCVaBPq49A7bgL9?g_st=ic

Walking to that hotel from San Jose was a mistake, incredibly hot even in winter and no shade, but it was possible — though I did have to switch which side of the road I was on several times because the sidewalk just stopped.

I don’t remember Not Just Bikes mentioning the sweltering heat and humidity in his video but it wouldn’t surprise me if he conveniently left it out or brushed over it.

But my point is that Houston is designed the way it is because very few people want to walk in 100 degree humid weather. It was mostly built after cars were invented so it reflects that.

>People who harp on Houston for being designed around cars (notably the “Not Just Bikes” channel on YouTube) usually live somewhere like the Netherlands with moderate weather and never address just how uncomfortable it is to be outside in Houston half the year. It also rains heavily in Houston quite frequently (90 days of rain/year). >I would love more walkable infra but I don’t blame anyone for not wanting to walk in Houston.

Here in Tokyo, it's also quite hot, and extremely humid during the summer. Rain is very common during the summer as well, and we have typhoons too. Even so, everyone walks here, and lots of people (including moms with little kids) ride bicycles too, rain or shine.

>> Here in Tokyo, it's also quite hot, and extremely humid during the summer

Here are two weatherspark links for Tokyo and Houston:

https://weatherspark.com/y/143809/Average-Weather-in-Tokyo-J...

https://weatherspark.com/y/9247/Average-Weather-in-Houston-T...

Scroll down to the "Humidity Comfort Levels" sections of those two pages.

Those are not the same things. Tokyo is very different from Houston. Having just gotten back from south Texas, I know this.

I never understood why people compare places like Houston and Tokyo... Do these people lack any form of logical reasoning? It's the reason why the saying "apples to oranges" exists.

Do you know how dumb it sounds to compare two entirely different places as if they should relate?

I haven't been to Houston. But, people living in Singapore (near the equator) take public transportation and walk. So do people in Japan where it also ridiculously hot and humid. Japan also has just as many if not more rainy days than Houston and Singapore has double.

I'm not saying I get why people would not want to walk. Only that it's common to do so anyway.

Bikes are cooling as transportation, even in Houston. I think people who never bike as transportation, only exercise, don't understand that you can pedal around at like 20% exertion which gives you constant wind.

I had a similar experience in Mexico City, except it wasn't a cop who stopped me, it was a friendly civilian driving by, and they asked if I was confused because they had observed two men stalking me from 3 blocks back for a while who were likely to jump me.

I don't think anyone stopping to genuinely help is a "bad" thing, or robs one of their dignity. If you do, maybe that is a comment on your internal worldview instead of on that of the person stopping.

Dense cities where passersby ignore you wantonly are decried as impersonal, lacking community, etc and now we are saying we WANT MORE of that? That it brings DIGNITY?

I don't understand what you're arguing. It seems like you're saying you'd rather have a city where cops and concerned citizens stop to ask if you're confused than a dense, walkable city? I also don't understand how you got that dense, walkable cities would be someplace "where passersby ignore you wantonly".

Cities used to be filled with tight knit communities in neighborhoods where everyone knew each other. Kids played outside and roamed around and no one cared.

Then mass suburbanization happened in the 60s/70s. American cities became high crime places. Everyone became anonymous. No one knew their neighbor.

Such is the paradox of modern urban life. Nowhere are you closer physically to your neighbor, but more distant socially. The 5 acre farms outside of town all know each other’s grandkids by name. Does a city dweller even know the name of the resident across the hall?

>Cities used to be filled with tight knit communities in neighborhoods where everyone knew each other. Kids played outside and roamed around and no one cared. >Then mass suburbanization happened in the 60s/70s. American cities became high crime places. Everyone became anonymous. No one knew their neighbor.

Here in Tokyo, it's still like this: kids play outside and roam around, taking the subway by themselves, etc. But people don't know their neighbors here either, since it's a city with tens of millions of people; it's just safe because it's built into the culture, just like petty theft almost never happens here and when you drop your wallet, it's almost certain to be turned into the nearest police box, with all the cash still inside.

> Cities used to be filled with tight knit communities in neighborhoods where everyone knew each other. Kids played outside and roamed around and no one cared

There are many neighborhoods in cities and towns in the US where this is still true. I know because I live in one, and I've visited others. There are also a ton of US suburbs and exurbs where people barely know their neighbours.

Having a friendly neighborhood has much to do with the strength of community institutions and the existence of "third places". Those can be present (or not) in a variety of community layouts and densities.

My take is that it requires a sweet spot of economic security where people aren't struggling so much that they can't/don't trust in community, but also aren't so wealthy that they don't need/rely on their community. Beyond that, it also helps to have physical layouts that enable friendly unintentional encounters between residents.

The problem is that none of these places will be cheap to live in, because all else equal, the existence of that lifestyle will drive up demand (and therefore housing prices).

Thats the narrative thats popular but I find it doesn’t pencil out. I know plenty of neighbors living in an urban area. More than when I lived in a suburban area that’s for sure. You have much higher chance of coming about someone on foot in earshot in the urban area. When your neighbor takes out the trash in the suburbs they are doing it 100 yards away from you.

> I know plenty of neighbors living in an urban area.

I didn't say that urban areas are less neighbourly.

I meant that the range of densities that are conducive to neighbourliness is a necessary, but insufficient condition.

People on average need to feel both economically secure enough and at the same time so wealthy as to not rely on anyone else.

They also need a third-place in which to congregate

> They also need a third-place in which to congregate

This is why American suburbs outside the north east are so soul crushing - the "third place" is typically a church instead of a a pub.

What city do you live in? Which cities are you thinking of?

A neighborhood in a major west coast city.

Other places that come to mind include Ann Arbor MI, Burlington VT, Boulder CO.

Like I said, none of these are cheap places to live relative to nearby areas.

Yeah it’s interesting. The kids in the upper peninsula know everyone else their age within a 150 mile radius by the time they graduate from high school (usually via sports). Many of them live on roads that share their last name. Very, extremely rural with small towns sprinkled around.

Were they trying to stay that you will get stabbed by a homeless person but in a nicer way?

Reply on news.ycombinator.com