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Comment by jmillikin | Hacker News Reader

Ten years ago, a computer's useful lifetime was measured in months. Hardware specs were advancing so quickly that a two-year-old computer might not be capable of running newly-released software. RAM, disk, and even CPU upgrades were necessary to keep up to date.

Except for gamers, this is no longer true.

Computers without user-replaceable parts are a natural outcome of the fact that users no longer need to replace parts. Serviceability wasn't a goal, it was a workaround.

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I'm sorry, but I downvoted you for being inaccurate. Northwood core Pentium 4 CPUs and motherboards using DDR SDRAM were released in 2002. Two years later, the latest and greatest were Prescott cores Pentium 4s, and DDR was in its last stages of being better than DDR2. It would have been a large performance difference, to be sure, but for most applications it would not have been a deal-breaker. You wouldn't have issues running well-maintained XP on your Northwood, which could arguably tide you over until the Windows 7 release in 2009 quite well.

More importantly, the considerable hardware upgrades still hold today - there is no shortage of people who update their MacBook Pros to the newest every year let alone every two years (and these aren't exactly gamers), the mid-2010 13" MacBook Pro still had a Core 2 Duo, none of the 2010 refresh MacBooks had Thunderbolt, only yesterday there was angst about the Mac Pro still using two-year-old CPUs, and the difference between an October 2010 old MacBook Air, the unupgradeable poster child, and a current one is considerable: the former has a Core 2 Duo, 4 GB of RAM if you upgraded during checkout, and a maximum of 128/256 GB hard drive on the 11"/13" respectively. Stepping back to the mid-2009 revision, which you would have had to order in June 2010, the difference is even larger.

Funny, I got ten years out of a Mac SE/30, four years out of a PowerBook G4 (Lombard), and five years out of a white iBook G4. I also used a Mac IIcx for almost a year, ten years after its release. My unibody MacBook 13" was on track too, until I beered it.

I do not agree.

I guess the question then is how many parts did you have to replace for each of those computers? Did repairs/upgradeability factor into the long lifetimes?

Upgrades: The SE/30 started its life as an SE, so it got the 68030+SuperDrive upgrade, and we put a monitor card in the expansion slot (which I later replaced with a 10BaseT card). Upped the RAM from 1MB to an intimidating 8MB. I think I stuck some RAM in the Lombard and the iBook too.

Repairs: invoked AppleCare once, two years in, when my iBook took a nasty fall off a table.

Apple makes sealed machines with bizarro, non-standard components inside, but by no means are they treated as disposable.

I look at it this way: I buy a new car, and for whatever reason, I really want nice rims on it. If I want the rims package, I also have to buy the package with traction control and sat nav, and it's going to cost me $3,500.

It doesn't make any sense- I don't want those other things. I only want rims.

Now with computers- say I work with big data, so I really only need a computer with a boatload of RAM and a pretty meh processor. If this model takes off (which I seriously doubt it will) all the sudden, to get my 64GB of ram I need an 8 core processor and a top of the line graphics card? It doesn't make any sense.

Package deals inevitably force people to buy things they have no desire for, and I'm not even taking into consideration how they are intentionally making this near impossible to repair or replace pieces manually.

It's just really dumb, and I have a hard time believing anyone actually thinks any part of this is a decent idea.

Apple has been doing this for years already.

Want a 15" screen? You WILL be having an i7 then.

(which might account for why Apple's 'entry' level 15" is 3x the cost of its competitors (UK))

This. I think it's also worth noting that for a pro laptop, price is not a major issue, if you're trying to treat your laptop like a BYOB, you're doing it wrong. So:

(a) The RAM capacity is limited by the chipset anyway, and on "pro" machines, most people max out the RAM when they purchase or directly after. It's just that now you can't cheat and buy the RAM elsewhere to avoid an apple price premium.

(b) The SSD is replaceable, it's just not a standard connector. Obviously, 3rd party replacements will show up with a slightly higher cost than a bog standard SATA drive. I view this like the replacement of FW with tbolt, who cares?

(c) (Stock) RAM seldom goes bad before other components, and if it does, you treat it like the other components. They can unplug the SSD from your MBP and plug it into an identical one, swap complete. So we're not talking weeks for a replacement here -- just go to an Apple store. If you're not near an Apple store, you're probably not near a vendor of replacement RAM or SSD drives either.

One issue though: You had better keep that SSD backed up! 'cause if the machine goes south, you have no way of accessing your data unless someone comes out with a apple propretary card egd to sata adapter.

How is purchasing RAM identical to what Apple uses at market prices (rather than marked up by a factor of 2x to 5x) "cheating", exactly?

RAM and storage prices fall drastically with time while memory and storage requirements in software increase with time. If I plan to get 3-5 years of life out of my computer isn't it only logical to add on memory and storage when I need it, not all up front?

It looks like ssd is actually connected via standard sata. Only size and shape of the card is non-standard:

http://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/MacBook-Pro-with-Retina-Displ...

> One issue though: You had better keep that SSD backed up! 'cause if the machine goes south, you have no way of accessing your data unless someone comes out with a apple propretary card egd to sata adapter.

Target Disk mode to the rescue [1]. Firewire not needed, thunderbolt is supported now (so you'll need a t-bolt enabled enclosure or drive).

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Target_Disk_Mode

What does suck about this from the consumer standpoint though is now when ordering if you want to upgrade a component from the base model you pay Apple prices to do so. For example Apple has historically overcharged for RAM and hard drive upgrades, so many users would order the base and then install upgrades on their own to save a bunch of money. Now you pay what Apple says you pay.

We might have done this but statistically few people did. As reliability and capacity have gone up while Apple's hardware markup has gone down, it's harder to justify the (power|size|weight|reliability) hit from making those parts field serviceable.

I completely agree. Also, if you ask to "normal" people, they will tell you that one of the reason they love Apple's computers is that if there's any problem, they can just go to the genius bar and solve it. Joe the manager or Susie the mom doesn't care if they can't replace the HD themselves, they want to know that if something happen they don't have to ship their computer somewhere to get it fixed.

There's Geek Squad, or your smart cousin, or a local computer shop for PCs.

All three of which typically provide inferior service with little expectation of a pleasant interaction or desired outcome.

But they give you viruses from their pirated support software.

Value: added!

Except may be I can't afford the heavy Apple price tag right now and I only want a 256GB SSD and 8GB RAM to get me started while I save up for a few more months for the other upgrades... not everyone can afford to go all out and go full spec.

Or maybe i think I'm only going to need the lower spec, but having bought my nice new Mac I find it really easy to use and I'm a bit of a genius at this movie editing thing but I could be more of a genius if it was a bit faster... but hang on, now I need to buy a whole new laptop for another £3000. But until my big hollywood blockbuster I can't afford it :(

Pretty sure you CAN replace the SSD later on, not unlike the MacBook Air models. You just need to purchase the correct SSD and connector for the model.

The RAM though, you're out of luck. An extra $200 on the build for 16gb is a bit of a ripoff considering that you can get 16gb laptop sticks from anywhere between $100-$150.

Yes, read that. Generally for me RAM is bigger factor these days than storage... with speeds from USB3 I can generally get by with external storage.

usually i agree, but in this case they are non-usual sticks. While i hardly imagine they cost apple 3x the price of usual stick, it is a factor

I am not sure how to reconcile my general agreement with what you are saying with my real life observation of how rarely I see people with Apple hardware older than 2, maybe 3, years old.

To put it in perspective, though, most of Apple's customers only started buying their hardware in the last two years and rarely purchased older models.

Do you have any references for that? That sounds rather weird since I know in university back in 2006/2007 probably about 90% of the student population had macs. Coffee shops have similarly been dominated by them for at least 5 years now.

I agree. I bought a white MacBook C2D in late 2006 that is still going strong, with the only things I've replaced being the battery, the HDD and the fan (pretty recently). It's still my primary machine which I use for Python and Java coding on a big retail application.

The fact that most parts are not user-replaceable has never been an issue as with the sole exception of those three parts everything else has lasted extremely well.

That Retina MacBook Pro is looking extremely tempting, however.

with the only things I've replaced being the battery, the HDD and the fan (pretty recently)

Errrm, you do realise you can't replace the battery in the Retina MacBook Pro right since it is glued in... probably also the fan and also the HDD without the special screwdriver for their special screws?

Nor was the fan on my current MacBook user-replaceable, I had it done by a Mac repair shop. Point is that for a portable low-end Mac that I've used heavily as my primary machine for five and a half years having only those three components fail is pretty decent.

If I can buy one of those new Retina MBPs and only have to pay to get the battery, flash drive and/or one of the fans repaired or replaced over a five and a half year period I'll be very satisfied with the purchase.

Yeah, fair enough. You're assuming that a Mac repair shop will un-glue the battery and not regard it as "oh well, you need a new one" like they do when say a TV part breaks these days (they may well be able to, I genuinely don't know). Problem may well be though the cost of doing this may be quite high once you are out of warranty (again, I don't know, but suspect replacing a faulty RAM chip will not be cheap).

That's also a fair point and I hope that doesn't happen. I guess we'll have to see, although the niche industry that has grown around even iPhone repairs suggests that companies may provide the service.

Unfortunately I don't see a way for any company to make machines like the Retina MBP in future without using custom and tough-to-replace components.

Yes, agree on all your points. I have a colleague who buys Macs purely because their build quality is so high and less likely to break. I'm sure Apple could have designed a new connector for the RAM, and not glued the battery in such a way - it is Apple after all, just look at the innovative products they have already come up with, this should be nothing! It will be interesting to read why they took the decisions they did.

Having said all that, it is a lovely machine, and if I had a much higher disposable income or I was a Mac user (never have used one!) then I would buy one... could install Windows vbut can't get over the lack of right click :D

Can't this be seen the other way around?

If a computer can last long, it is very useful to repair it / replace broker parts. If technology advances in such a way that new software needs a new computer, then it makes sense to buy a new computer instead of repairing the old one.

Unless by serviceability you mean being able to upgrade your computer.

Either way, I can see the benefits of trading that ability for a powerful but light/small machine.

Another factor of this is that Apple has a global servicing network in its Apple stores that is kinda astounding. With a sony laptop, you would have to mail it off to their national service center, wait a few weeks and get it mailed back to you for warranty repair.[1]

The same repair can often be accomplished in an Apple store very quickly.

For example. I bought a Macbook Pro in the USA. I was in the UK and had a problem. I went to the UK apple store, and they fixed it- replacing parts-- in 30 minutes. It doesn't matter that I bought the machine in another country (something that would be a hassle with other manufacturers) and I didn't have to send it off-- I was without my computer for all of the time it took to eat lunch, not a couple weeks.

Apple has radically changed the service/support situation for their machines, and thus they are designing machines to be highly serviceable by APPLE, not by users. These aren't made to be modded, but for apple to be able to quickly service.

I think iFixit is looking at these machines in the context of other players in the industry. You have to service your Dell laptop because getting service from Dell may well be a pain in the butt or simply not possible. That's not the case with Apple-- provided there's an Apple store reasonably close (and if not ,they have pretty efficient mail in service.)

My experiences with PC makers, with consumer electronics makers of all types, and even big companies like Intel have never been anywhere close to this level of service and convenience in the service.

[1] Between me and my cofounders we've had this experience with Sony, Dell and HP. The results we got with Apple astounded one of my cofounders because their experience was that things just didn't work that way-- and in their experience it took several multi-week trips to the repair shop to get their name brand PC repaired, leaving them effectively without a computer for months-- because the maker saved money by outsourcing repair to some random third party repair agency. Apple gets things right by owning the store that does the repairs and can impose quality checks on them.

Do you have Applecare? Or is this just service that you have gotten?

FWIW, I didn't have applecare, bought a used macbook from craigslist, then had the case crack in the UK. Apple store on Regent Street (IIRC) fixed it in about 3 hours - they had to hunt for a US-style keyboard part. No applecare, no major hassle. I will say initially they told me to drop it off and I'd have it back in 3-5 days. I said that was unacceptable, then they said 'leave it here and we'll call you'. Got a call 3 hours later.

I had my UK MacBook with a cracked case repaired twice now, once while in the US. I did have to wait a few days that time, but I think it's a little more reasonable for US keyboards to be in stock in the flagship London store, vs UK keyboards available in a random corner of Arizona.

Both times, it's been a much better experience than getting other equipment repaired/replaced.

It's not a global service network. You don't even have to go to the 'third world' with unreliable electricity to see that - there are no official Apple Stores in Poland [1] or Trinidad and Tobago [2], off the top of my head. Also, getting warranty service in TT is much easier with a Dell than with an Apple.

[1] http://www.apple.com/pl/buy/locator/map.html?tySearch=1&... - one "Premium Reseller" in a metropolitan area of about a million people. Redoing the search ("Szukaj" button) shows a number of general electronics stores carrying some products

[2] http://www.apple.com/lae/buy/locator/index.php?ctry=TT - speaks for itself really

There are parts of the US where you have to travel several hours to get to an Apple Store.

"I think iFixit is looking at these machines in the context of other players in the industry."

I think iFixit might also have a conflict of interest in that it sells repair parts for Apple equipment...

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