James C. Scott, author of Seeing Like a State, has died
nitter.poast.org
nitter.poast.org
This has effects that are inescapable, especially in the fields of medicine, mental health, education, social engagement. Tech makes our levers to move the Earth more efficient, but at the cost of a lack of diversity of thought, lifestyle, and value.
Must it be this way? Can we provide the complexity of flexibility while protecting our users’ finances and other important information? I don’t know if we can, but our track record isn’t good.
citation needed.
one anecdote that comes to mind, the gnu build system had an odd assortment of machines. when they were hacked (very targeted attack) they only noticed because the malware crashed on a R6000 mips cpu or something.
I would, however, posit that it's pretty darn close to "always."
Every choice a programmer makes about how to model the world is a choice that is forced upon every user of their application.
Many programmers lean left politically, but the same type of “fascistic” qualities they complain about in political leaders seems to go unquestioned when making a program, which dispassionately divides the world into rigid categories.
I remember making a comment years ago about opening PDFs in PDF.js instead of Acrobat (12 years, it turns out [1] -- PDF.js had just started shipping in Firefox). At the time, Acrobat was the standard and widely exploited, but obviously none of those exploits did anything in the browser.
Still, homogeneity isn't always bad. If I were in, say, the cyber insurance racket, I'd make any company not using U2F or FIDO2 pay up. Not all choices are good choices.
To take the first example of scientific forestry that replaced the local control over the land in which the categories were the species of plants as an example, it was not the factual knowledge about the species of plants, which is an observation about the true nature of reality, it was the decision to use that fact about the distinction between the plants and decide to separate the plants geographically to uniform monoculture plots rather than allowing them to be mixed together (and, in the process, in fact destroying things that they did not understand, the ecosystem) that is argued to have been the cause of the scientific forestry failure. The plots were just fine before and after the knowledge about what plants were where and what the different types of plants there were became known; it was the act of separating the plants into the monoculture plots. The knowledge was a necessary prerequisite to do so, but it was not sufficient, and I don't know if I could believe that accurate knowledge of actual pre-existing categories that correspond to the actual universe could by itself be wrong. Certain plants really are different than other plants, species actually exist. What you decide to do with that information is up to you, but I don't know if I could support the suppression of the acquisition of knowledge merely because it might (but also might not) be used in ways we disagree.
If they had merely studied the plants, that would not have been wrong. If they had created a map of where the plants were, that also would not have been wrong in my view. It was when they decided to change reality that the moral implications attach, in my view. They could have mapped out the plants and divided the map into categories: "there are oak trees here and not here", or "there are strawberry bushes here, and not here", and that is "dividing the world into categories" (namely: presence or absence of certain plants in certain locations), but that is merely the true expression of factual reality. It was how they decided as a separate step, "let's make all the strawberry bushes be in the same location" which incorporated many smaller actions like "let's move this strawberry bush from here to here" or "let's remove all the plants we have not specifically identified, as we (falsely) believe that they are not essential" in which reality was actually changed, and thus the moral or ethical implication attaches in my view. Those who act have a duty to act responsibly, to do no harm, and so on, and the duty scales with the scope of the action, and perhaps there is a scope of action which by itself is too large, the standard or duty of care too impossible to satisfy due to the sheer complexity, for any one person or collection of people to rightfully possess what would be obligatory in my view to have the permission to act.
I would also not view the mere publication of software as action per se either. In your example, it is the utilization of the marketing channels to push the software onto users with or without their knowledge, to exercise editorial control over what software may or may not be used on one's supposedly own device, and so on that the duty applies. If someone publishes a program that divides the world into categories, but no one uses the program, it doesn't matter how wrong the program is. The program can have a field for skin color that is literally black and white for the purpose of calibrating an algorithm that divides pixels into skin-or-not-skin, for example to cut out the background, and yet if no one actually uses, much less is forced to use the program then the mechanism of distinguishing between skin-and-not-skin being incorrect and not for example a scalar or some other model does not harm anyone. It's just an overly simplistic program, a piece of text, an incomplete idea, a reflection of a categorical distinction that does not exist in reality but only in the mind of the programmer and in the software, but if no one ever uses the software let alone is forced to use it, who possibly can be harmed by it?
I'd say a much better illustrative example from the book was the introduction of last names. In that case, faced with the illegible identity of the people under its rule, a whole new construct was invented, imposed and pertains to this day. This one really opened my eyes. The whole reason we have last names at all is because our society just sort of invented them, hundreds of years ago, for its own convenience, and it was so successful we all just accept it as the way things are. Now that is seeing - and acting - like a state!
But no one can comprehend this, so at best, if you are literally the smartest person in the world, you might be able to get away with only a few hundred simplifying abstractions.
The average HN user probably needs tens of thousands.
So its not just states, it's everyone and everything that will ever exist.
The real question is what is the best bundle of such aids to use, at any given time?
> I believe that many of the most tragic episodes of state development in the late nineteenth and twentieth centuries originate in a particularly pernicious combination of three elements. The first is the aspiration to the administrative ordering of nature and society, ... The second element is the unrestrained use of the power of the modern state as an instrument for achieving those designs. The third element is a weakened or prostrate civil society that lacks the capacity to resist those plans.
I believe my comment still stands, in responding to not the book but the author of the comment, in that framework I'm describing, assuming the thesis of the book is true, then the second element is not met by the mere publication of software. Rather it is the foisting of such software upon users that is the act of power or other covert means by which choice is restricted such as controlling the bounds of publication or else the centralizing nature of capital investment in software that by sheer bad luck it turns out that perhaps we just end up with a few pseudo monopolies because software as a capital expense is ... well, expensive to develop.
I am sorry that you failed to acknowledge how my comment is applicable at scale.
> [T]hat force to make it secure is the very force I’m describing which locks down people’s options, their ability to self-express, and their options to create personal and societal value out of their actions.
Yes. You see how it applies. The initial attack was uncalled for.
Great call out! This is very near the core of my technospiritual struggles, the issue of tech to me. First, I'd say it's important to open the framing some! Ursala Franklin contrasts perscriptive vs holistic technologies, tech which sets fixed order versus tech that expands the capability of people & craftsmem. Tech can expand not constrain. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ursula_Franklin#Holistic_and_p...
> Everyone in your app has permissions defined by some enum, a limited number of actions available, content moderation machinery.
Alas, yes; most tech is of this variety!
There were some very active submissions recently on Home-Cooked Software and Barefoot Developers which is about exactly the opposite, about tech for personal & small scale itches, made as you like it. https://maggieappleton.com/home-cooked-software https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40633029 322 points, 40 days, 173 comments
> Tech makes our levers to move the Earth more efficient, but at the cost of a lack of diversity of thought, lifestyle, and value.
The largely unexplored alternate is malleable systems, is general systems research, rather than letting capitalism take the reign & crank out endless apps at ever more massified cloudified portions & scale. We can elect to make software soft & participative. https://malleable.systems
Society is in a Goodharts Law phase; the last 50-60 years are increasingly seen as a shit measure for planning the future.
Achievement using computers as we know them is tapped out due to physical limitations. Technical success there is too specific an output to be generally applicable.
All the talk in IT about not making monoliths and the biggest portion industry is just 3 cloud providers, Python, Linux, network stacks, and the JS ecosystem.
Ignorant business machine tech is dead to gen pop who are tired of giving up their time to tap on bullshit. It’s best put to real science and management of material logistics.
The state wants a homogeneous population because it make it easier to obtain desired election outcomes and desired amount of power if people can be manipulated as large groups towards a limited subset of parties/options. The politician who promises "I will lower tax for the middle class by 1%" won't stand a chance if their opponent promises "I will completely abolish all taxes for the middle class."
Corporations want a homogeneous population because it makes it easier to meet consumer needs if consumers all want the same things. Also, in terms of marketing, it's easier/more effective to target people based on their social groups; then let people expend the effort required to bring themselves into alignment with the group identity... As opposed to trying to target campaigns based on complex individual needs...
When trying to create campaigns which cater to many unique individuals, there may be no clear, repeatable patterns that can drive predictable consumer behaviors. If the consumer can be tricked into adapting their own personal preferences to more closely match their group's preference... and if that group happens to be a large group, it creates predictable consumer behavior, at scale, at no cost.
E.g.
Identity = "I'm a creative individual"
-> Sales pitch = "Here, buy this Apple computer"
Identity = "I'm a moral person"
-> Sales pitch = "Here, buy this book about DEI and corporate responsibility"
Identity = "I'm a libertarian"
-> Sales pitch = "Here, buy some Bitcoin"
Identity = "I'm a highly educated and caring person"
-> Sales pitch = "Here, buy this vaccine to protect your loved ones"
> Mass production requires mass consumption, but there cannot be mass consumption without widespread identical views as to what the necessities of life are. One must be sure the market will react rapidly and massively to a given proposal or suggestion. One therefore needs fundamental psychological unity on which advertising can play with certainty when manipulating public opinion.
Gives you a different lens on enterprise software adoption and implementation!
My one criticism was that when answering the question "why did people start eating grains", he never seemed to consider that it could simply be that people enjoy eating them.
Specifically grain being so calorie dense and pleasurable that we end up becoming beholden to its growth, with significant cost. Look at all the ideas permeating these days about dangers of high carb diets, this book [1] suggesting they make us stupid for example. Or about the link between metabolic disfunction and mental disorders [2]
[1] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/17333302-grain-brain?fro...
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/3e05xm1jb7cd79kge7vio/Scott_P...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_Cheers_for_Anarchism
I'm not an anarchist, but it's a wonderful read and includes a quote that has shaped my life ever since:
> “One need not have an actual conspiracy to achieve the practical effects of a conspiracy. More regimes have been brought, piecemeal, to their knees by what was once called ‘Irish Democracy,’ the silent, dogged resistance, withdrawal and truculence of millions of ordinary people, than by revolutionary vanguards or rioting mobs.”
(Only Love the Beloved Republic—in Forster’s words—deserves three cheers)
In order to document the state, it is necessary to at least partially exist inside the state. In order to critique the state, you depend on the state to provide the means of production of that critique. If not one state, then another. And so in like terms, your critique will be co-opted for somebody else's benefit. Thats the nature of states.
Scott was not Ayn Rand. She was apparently lucid enough to realise her core dependency on the state, and had a complex end, in state provided health care.
i feel like the fundamental discoveries of radio, information theory, error correction coding, automata theory, language theory, type theory, mathematical logic, instruction set design, compiler optimization, etc., which form a much better medium for distribution of books than hot lead ever could, are fundamentally not that dependent on states and mass production. yes, there is a huge difference between the billion-transistor chip i'm running this browser on and the 3500-transistor cpu in a commodore 64. but the commodore was already a weapon of mass instruction, as anyone who used commodore bbses in the 80s knows
if states collapsed, would we still be able to make computers? i suspect we would, though we'd have to do a lot of innovation to adapt to the radical new environment
- seeing like a state: https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/03/16/book-review-seeing-like-a-state/
- the art of not being governed: https://www.thepsmiths.com/p/review-the-art-of-not-being-governed
both worth reading if you have the time.