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I think this is a very important post; thank you for writing it. In general, if your kids don't trust you then fixing that should be your first priority before you start pointing fingers everywhere but inward.

Parenting looks very very hard and I'm not implying this is easy - being worthy of trust is one of the hardest things in all our relationships. I do, however, think people need to reckon with the fact that a lot of the time the bad thing teachers are protecting kids from (or at least trying to) is their home life.

This is a bad solution to a bad problem. I dont think teachers are qualified to do this nor do I think they are in a position to do it safely but I do think it is important to help kids get out from under abuse.

I think more community would be a better general solution so it isn't just an underpaid, overworked, and opinionated government employee vs an underpaid, overworked, and opinionated parent with the kid crushed in the middle with no outside help they can turn to.

> if your kids don't trust you then fixing that should be your first priority before you start pointing fingers everywhere but inward

While the present state of Musk and his daughter's relationship is detestable, I don't think we can conclude they didn't try--in private--to mend the relationship before she concluded it was a lost cause.

There's some interesting behavioral evolutionary calculus that might be interesting here though. If you find out your kid is trans there is a much lower chance they pass on your genes, could it be natural for the relationship to be more likely to break down after that?

I would think evolution would tend to more or less force the most parental resources to go to the most likely propagation of those genes. Especially if there are lots of other children to vie for attention and resources.

> If you find out your kid is trans there is a much lower chance they pass on your genes, could it be natural for the relationship to be more likely to break down after that?

While we know transexuality—people having gender identities or conforming to gender norms other than those corresponding to their assigned sex—is preserved across millennia and disparate cultures [1], it’s unclear if it generalises beyond humans [2].

We do, however, see homosexuality across both time and cultures in humans and in animals [3]. That preservation strongly implies evolutionary benefits, whether as a side effect or—more likely, given its strong presentation in social animals—group selection.

So no, I don’t think there is evolutionary pressure for parents to reject trans (or gay) kids. Especially when they’re in a resource rich state.

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transsexual#Historical_under...

[2] https://daily.jstor.org/transgender-proclivities-in-animals/

[3] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_anima...

I'm not sure history shows parents have on average been comparatively kind to gay children either.

Instinct is definitely one possible explanation for a behavior spanning so much geography and cultures.

> not sure history shows parents have on average been comparatively kind to gay children

Historically parents weren’t kind to any children because they were costly and died a lot. (Almost no ancient culture condemned—as we do today—a parent exposing an unwanted baby, for instance, for reasons ranging from birth defect to family rivalry [1]. This behaviour, too, in conserved in animals [2].)

There was a good thread on this a few days ago [3], but TL;DR gay stigmatisation is more recent than homosexuality (or trans sexuality). The behaviour that is older and better conserved across geography and cultures is the underlying one, not the negative backlash. (Also conserved: bad parents.)

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infanticide

[2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infanticide_(zoology)

[3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40977331

Using absolute across the board lesser investment to dismiss comparative investment is a bit sloppy and a red herring.

The thread you reference is criminality and infanticide, not parental prioritization of kids old enough to be known as gay/trans. I suspect most people don't know if their infant is gay/trans. I also assert there is a difference between prioritizing relationships and resources on a parent to child level and views on what should be illegal.

A gay or trans person probably has as much evolutionary value to society as anyone else, the fallacy you've fallen into from your prior post is to confuse that population level dynamic with the parents drive to pass on their particular genes.

It seems absolutely insane to me that it isn't even possible to consider the parent has an instinct to prioritize relationships and resources with children most likely to reproduce. It seems some want to work hard to make sure it isn't seen as a reasonable hypothesis, because if it were those feelings would be as valid and baked in as homosexual feelings.

> thread you reference is criminality and infanticide

The point is historically--and across the animal kingdom--the default is parents minimally "prioritising relationships and resources on a parent to child level." Irrespective of odds of survival.

> fallacy you've fallen into from your prior post is to confuse that population level dynamic with the parents drive to pass on their particular genes

The drive to pass on genes is biological. It operates at the individual and group levels. We have no evidence the desire to pass on one's genes has any biological roots; reckless abandon produces more offspring, after all, and plenty of species, including humans, show both kin preference and out-of-group sympathies.

> insane to me that it isn't even possible to consider the parent has an instinct to prioritize relationships and resources with children most likely to reproduce

We're having a discussion. It's being considered. The problem is the evidence is stacked against it. If a phenotype is conserved across animals and humans, the simplest hypothesis is it has utility. At that point, evolutionary pressure at all levels will tend to work to conserve it. Including through parental instincts.

> some want to work hard to make sure it isn't seen as a reasonable hypothesis

It's a reasonable hypothesis. The problem is it has no evidence for it and plenty for the null. Pigs roll over and smother their piglets. That isn't a sign of hidden selection pressure, it's just bad parenting.

That said, I'm not cleanly rejecting it. We don't yet have a good model for the genetic basis of mental disorders. And a lot of mental disorders, e.g. a tendency towards random violence, could have served someone well in antiquity. So it very well could be that parents rejecting kids who won't have children in high school is innate to some. But again, we have no evidence for it.

The motherfucker has 11 kids _that we know about_, maybe he should stop being so worried about passing on his genes Nick Cannon-style, and more worried about being a father to the ones he has.

> What I am saying is that if your kids are not comfortable talking to you about serious topics like this, you've failed as a parent. Your kids should know you'll love them no matter what and will support them in trying to build a happy life for themselves.

When Hacker News hits the heartstrings. Great life principle, rjbwork.

> Man who hates that his trans child hates him angry

These are very strong accusations. Do you have a reference or is this just an emotional response?

I know that his trans child won't speak to him - I surmise it indicates hate, but perhaps not.

Usually when people say things like "this is the final straw" it indicates anger.

You can read more on the former by searching "Xavier Musk" and/or "Vivian Musk".

Isn't there an inversion taking place in that logic. It stands that she might hate him, but not that he hates her.

Well, he seems to have had a complete and very public nervous breakdown about trans people in the last few years, so, well, you do the maths.

Did he? What did he do?

The statement was not that

"he hates her" but that

"he hates that she hates him".

I did misread that. Several times in fact.

No drama, we've all skipped a word or three at times.

> Do you have a reference

She is quoted saying she no longer wishes "to be related to [her] biological father in any way, shape or form" [1]. Musk has publicly ranted about the estrangement, which isn't usually how one mends ties with family [2]. While I have no personal insight into the situation, it's fair to say Musk hates the estrangement and that his child, at the very least, wants nothing to do with him.

[1] https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/elon-musks-child-seeks-...

[2] https://www.mercurynews.com/2022/10/10/elon-musk-says-he-los...

This is discussed in the Walter Isaacson biography that came out last year. Saying he “hates” his daughter is completely wrong and ignores first hand claims from both Musk and his biographer.

>Musk only learned she had transitioned through a secondhand source

>The wife of Elon's brother got a text, Isaacson wrote, which said: "Hey, I'm transgender, and my name is now Jenna". The text from the child, as in the biography, added: "Don't tell my dad."

>The biographer said that Musk was "generally sanguine" when he found out she had transitioned but was hurt when she cut off communication with him.

>The rift pained him more than anything in his life since the infant death of his firstborn child Nevada," Isaacson wrote of Musk's feelings about his relationship with his 19-year-old daughter.

>Isaacson said that Musk blamed the disconnect between him and his daughter on her schooling at Crossroads, a private school she attended in Los Angeles. Musk has made similar comments publicly.

>Last year, he told the Financial Times his daughter didn't want to be associated with him because of what he called the "full-on communism" taught in schools.

https://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musk-comments-relations...

This all explains why he has had such an anti-woke streak, he blames the ideology for poisoning one of his kids against him.

Definitely recommend reading the biography, it’s very interesting.

I didn't say he hates his daughter. I'd suggest you reread.

Ah my bad, I read it on my phone and read it as "he hates his daughter". Sorry.

Well the rest of my comment is still relevant anyway I guess.

Christ ... that's a lot of quoting and referencing. The guy is a douche. It's as simple as that.

Yeah it's pretty crazy considering Musk's own family backstory. Is he butthurt that his transgender child went no-contact on him before he could kick them out of the family himself?