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Comment by InDubioProRubio | Hacker News Reader

They old Hanse-Aristocrats did Stop Franz Josef Strauss from acquiring nukes and now all of europe is secretly scrambling to buy the materials and techniques from every country willing to sell.

Somewhere in some swedish/finish/isaeli nuclear powerplant, some eastern european/ russian-chinese border countries delegations are sharing a waiting room, whistling tunelessly embarrassed by this generation of politicans ability to perceive and shape the world.

The peaceniks just don't get that in this game they do not make the rules. The one defector that starts the war does. War by definition is societys end- and thus society has no say there, try as it might. It can allow its own version of the "devil" to put up bullwarks. Or it doesn't

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It is extremely doubtful any of the allies would have allowed Germany nukes. Back then, Germany (East or West) was not a fully sovereign country.

France and the UK have nukes, is that not sufficient? It seems to be getting the job done.

France precisely has nukes because de Gaulle did not believe that the U.S. would actually retaliate in case Paris was nuked.

In turn, I highly doubt that France would retaliate for Germany if Berlin was nuked.

This may seem outrageous for people reading this for the first time, but it is perfectly historical.

I think if your country doesn't have nukes, it is merely a gametheoritic poker chip for those who do.

Will it help Poland, Latvia, Finland, Ukraine, Estonia, Georgia, if Europe and its values, are that easy deterred? Those security guarantees are almost worthless now, that two defectors have started a new great game.

> that two defectors have started a new great game

There was never the "Great Game". Look into Russian archives, they never played something like that. There was no great plan to capture India. It was all self inflicted paranoia and projection of UK colonial elites!

The competitive, zero-sum conquests of two empires were very real, as were the sphere of influence negotiations.

But that’s not the point either way. As I’m reading gp, the point is that if the leaders of the international order want to prevent nuclear proliferation (a worthy goal), they’ll have to do better to protect Russia and China’s neighbors from their territorial aggression. Else, the border states won’t have a better choice than deterrence if they want to survive.

How many Ukraines and Taiwans will it take before a dozen new hands hold their own red buttons?

> The competitive, zero-sum conquests

Controlling country like Afghanistan is not zerosum game. It is a blackhole that burns money, resources and men! There was never great plan to conquer India (as British believed).

> leaders of the international order want to prevent nuclear proliferation

"Leaders" are happy if they find their way from podium.

Current situation is more similar to Cuban missile crisis, not some great chess game. Sadly we do not have anyone like Kennedy!

It’s true there was no game. The power-mad expansion and conquest was not motivated by anything like fun.

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